Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.
The war would end, a whole lot of people would stop getting killed, and it would open a sliver of space to organize on class lines instead of nationalist ones.
As it is, it is basically illegal to be a communist or an anarchist in Ukraine, and the country is under martial law with NATO-armed and trained fascist brigades doling out summary justice. Could it get worse? Why should the left advocate for people to die on the hill of a country which arrests communists, dismantles labor unions, and liquidates public infrastructure on internet auctions for foreign investors?
If you take the most vulgar Anarchist approach, all states are bad, full stop. Political practice doesn’t even operate on that paradigm. You struggle to undermine oppressive hierarchical systems that you come in direct contact with through direct action. If you take the vulgar Leninist approach, the Proletariat should struggle for the overthrow of their Bourgeoisie (this would include the proletariat of Ukraine and Russia respectively, as well as the proletariat of Western countries which see this conflict only as a means to strengthen their military alliances and diplomatic positions). Of course, the situation is too nuanced to apply such a vulgar approach, but that should be the STARTING POINT for anybody who considers themselves anti-capitalists. You should be able to justify any deviation from those bedrock positions.
NATO aid and their not allowing Ukraine to negotiate peace is what is prolonging this war. We aren’t arguing for all of Ukraine to become Russian territory, which hasn’t been the position of the Russian Federation either.
We would like a negotiated peace that alllows the Donbas republics to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation as they’ve voted to do, and a promise for Ukraine to not become part of NATO. That senario is not the alternative you’re talking about, or what you’re implying we support.
We act as if the land wasnt invaded. The quickest way to achieve peace is for Putin yo withdraw. If the Ukrainians push into Russia after a withdraw, then we are having a different conversation.
You cant claim to believe in peace while in another territory.
Your way of conceptializing this is so childlike as to be useless.
I want the war in Ukraine to end. I want them to negotiate the best and most obvious solution to this conflict for the parties involved. I want the war to end because then people will not be getting killed.
You want NATO to keep supporting Ukraine, to keep Ukraine away from negotiating. You want this, because… i don’t know why.
I’m saying the Ukrainians should not be expected to negotiate, given that it is their land being invaded. If Putin doesn’t like that, he can pound sand and leave.
If someone invades your house, you wouldn’t just given them a room and bath to have them clam down.
If someone invades your house, you wouldn’t just given them a room and bath to have them clam down.
I sure am glad that libs are aware that international relations are complex issues that cannot be boiled down to household analogies. It sure would be frustrating if they tried to make this into some simple black/white scenario with good guys and bad guys separated from material reality and historical context
No, if he didn’t he would have been couped and the invasion launched anyway. Russia is a dictatorship of capital. Putin answers to the national bourgeoisie of Russia.
Also hypotheticals like that aren’t really relevant to discussing actual exit strategies. Unless you’ve found a way to hop realities.
Then they deserve defeat at the hands of Ukraine. If they want to go into a war on their own volition, then they will have to face to consequences. If that requires NATO might, then so be it. Peace was always an option.
I disagree, but even if I agreed I’d accept the material reality that is that Ukraine is bleeding people. The have a volksturm going on, it’s a meat grinder, I think they should stop this mindless slaughter
Okay, but it doesn’t seem Ukraine is winning, even with NATO supporting them. So, that means a settlement is probably the best option to save lives all around.
I disagree. The fact that Russia (a supposed world super power) is still there means Ukraine is winning. Russia can’t beat little ol’ Ukraine in a war. I’d say they are in a better position than we think.
What if I told you that in March 2022 the Ukrainians and Russians came this close to closing a deal that would end the war… that is, before the Ukrainians decided to accept effectively unlimited NATO aid in exchange for scrapping said deal?
Im no fan of US imperialism, but you all conveniently leave out the alternative to NATO aid in Ukraine right now.
Nope it’s mentioned all the time: diplomacy, peace talks, and to make that even possible, establish legitimacy by abiding by your own agreements. The undermining of all of these things has been discussed at length. They don’t really need to be rehashed in our spaces for the benefit of new people that don’t ask questions, though.
Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.
lol RF could take over UA any time they wanted to if they took the NATO approach of completely destroying civilian life and essential resources via bombing. Military “aid” to Ukraine just keeps Ukrainian soldiers getting killed en masse, which is characterized by Russia as their compromise version of Denazification.
As far as Im concerned, Putins expansion is really helping NATOs by giving them a justification to exist
NATO obviously requires no credible justification to exist. This doesn’t matter.
I find it completely unreasonable to request a peace talk whilst in a neighboring sovereign nation invading. That’s lunacy to think Ukrainians are being the unreasonable ones here in regards to a peace talk.
Im no fan of US imperialism, but you all conveniently leave out the alternative to NATO aid in Ukraine right now.
Without NATO aid, Ukraine will just plainly be taken over by Purine Russia.
If you think that end result is OK, then I don’t know what to tell you.
As far as Im concerned, Putins expansion is really helping NATOs by giving them a justification to exist.
The war would end, a whole lot of people would stop getting killed, and it would open a sliver of space to organize on class lines instead of nationalist ones.
As it is, it is basically illegal to be a communist or an anarchist in Ukraine, and the country is under martial law with NATO-armed and trained fascist brigades doling out summary justice. Could it get worse? Why should the left advocate for people to die on the hill of a country which arrests communists, dismantles labor unions, and liquidates public infrastructure on internet auctions for foreign investors?
If you take the most vulgar Anarchist approach, all states are bad, full stop. Political practice doesn’t even operate on that paradigm. You struggle to undermine oppressive hierarchical systems that you come in direct contact with through direct action. If you take the vulgar Leninist approach, the Proletariat should struggle for the overthrow of their Bourgeoisie (this would include the proletariat of Ukraine and Russia respectively, as well as the proletariat of Western countries which see this conflict only as a means to strengthen their military alliances and diplomatic positions). Of course, the situation is too nuanced to apply such a vulgar approach, but that should be the STARTING POINT for anybody who considers themselves anti-capitalists. You should be able to justify any deviation from those bedrock positions.
Signing off on this comment as Cool and Good. Hexbear seal of approval or something like that.
Thank you PP, whether PoA responds to this comment or not, I found it very clear and insightful.
How does communism inform your perspective?
NATO aid and their not allowing Ukraine to negotiate peace is what is prolonging this war. We aren’t arguing for all of Ukraine to become Russian territory, which hasn’t been the position of the Russian Federation either.
We would like a negotiated peace that alllows the Donbas republics to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation as they’ve voted to do, and a promise for Ukraine to not become part of NATO. That senario is not the alternative you’re talking about, or what you’re implying we support.
We act as if the land wasnt invaded. The quickest way to achieve peace is for Putin yo withdraw. If the Ukrainians push into Russia after a withdraw, then we are having a different conversation.
You cant claim to believe in peace while in another territory.
I don’t even know what this means because it has no grounding in reality.
They can’t negotiate peace because they are in a war? How is it possible to resolve this conflict in any realistic way if thats the criteria?
Ideally by standing down. Again, they arent in their own nation.
Lets change perspectives here. Lets go back in time to the British colonialist and the native Americans. Are the natives supposed to just do nothing?
The victims ought not be expected to let the perpetrators continue to harm them
Your way of conceptializing this is so childlike as to be useless.
I want the war in Ukraine to end. I want them to negotiate the best and most obvious solution to this conflict for the parties involved. I want the war to end because then people will not be getting killed.
You want NATO to keep supporting Ukraine, to keep Ukraine away from negotiating. You want this, because… i don’t know why.
I’m saying the Ukrainians should not be expected to negotiate, given that it is their land being invaded. If Putin doesn’t like that, he can pound sand and leave.
If someone invades your house, you wouldn’t just given them a room and bath to have them clam down.
I sure am glad that libs are aware that international relations are complex issues that cannot be boiled down to household analogies. It sure would be frustrating if they tried to make this into some simple black/white scenario with good guys and bad guys separated from material reality and historical context
So in your mind they should not negotiate and fight to the last Ukrainian because your conception of geopolitics is a home invasion?
I’m saying Ukraine should take their aid and push Russia back, as they are doing quite well. Russia isn’t doing too hot there right now.
And then get couped and have the war continue under the leadership of a right wing hardliner
Please look up critiques of great man theory as it seems relevant to your line of thinking on this matter.
So what you are saying is Putin messed up and is in too deep now, no? Seems like the easiest solution would have been to not invade UkrIne
No, if he didn’t he would have been couped and the invasion launched anyway. Russia is a dictatorship of capital. Putin answers to the national bourgeoisie of Russia.
Also hypotheticals like that aren’t really relevant to discussing actual exit strategies. Unless you’ve found a way to hop realities.
Then they deserve defeat at the hands of Ukraine. If they want to go into a war on their own volition, then they will have to face to consequences. If that requires NATO might, then so be it. Peace was always an option.
I disagree, but even if I agreed I’d accept the material reality that is that Ukraine is bleeding people. The have a volksturm going on, it’s a meat grinder, I think they should stop this mindless slaughter
Okay, but it doesn’t seem Ukraine is winning, even with NATO supporting them. So, that means a settlement is probably the best option to save lives all around.
I disagree. The fact that Russia (a supposed world super power) is still there means Ukraine is winning. Russia can’t beat little ol’ Ukraine in a war. I’d say they are in a better position than we think.
What if I told you that in March 2022 the Ukrainians and Russians came this close to closing a deal that would end the war… that is, before the Ukrainians decided to accept effectively unlimited NATO aid in exchange for scrapping said deal?
Ukraine offered neutrality which was what Russia wanted and Russia rejected it. Then Ukraine accepted aid.
Ukraine also repeatedly broke Minsk II treaty
Nope it’s mentioned all the time: diplomacy, peace talks, and to make that even possible, establish legitimacy by abiding by your own agreements. The undermining of all of these things has been discussed at length. They don’t really need to be rehashed in our spaces for the benefit of new people that don’t ask questions, though.
lol RF could take over UA any time they wanted to if they took the NATO approach of completely destroying civilian life and essential resources via bombing. Military “aid” to Ukraine just keeps Ukrainian soldiers getting killed en masse, which is characterized by Russia as their compromise version of Denazification.
NATO obviously requires no credible justification to exist. This doesn’t matter.
I find it completely unreasonable to request a peace talk whilst in a neighboring sovereign nation invading. That’s lunacy to think Ukrainians are being the unreasonable ones here in regards to a peace talk.
So, no peace talks during war time, got it.
A war that Russia unilaterally started. They are not reliable negotiators.
What happened in 2014?
Ah yes, 2014, that was when Ukraine invaded Russia, right?
Answer the question, what happened in 2014?
For it to justify Russia invading Ukraine, it must have been something like Ukraine infringing on Russia’s sovereignty, right?