Uh huh. So… show me the gas chambers and other mass-death centers.
I get that this Nazi comparison is just hyperbole. But I’m calling you out on it. Comparing Jewish people to Nazis is… counterproductive. There’s no mass death center, or trains of civilians getting offloaded into camps where they dig their own graves and get gassed. Meanwhile, Hamas is using literally genocidal language and trying to wipe Israel off the map here.
The genocidal group is the dumbass Hamas in this conflict and you know it. Just because they’re dumbasses who don’t have the physical power / military strength to perform their promises doesn’t change the fact that Hamas is far closer to the literal Nazis in this example.
The closest thing to a genocide is the West Bank situation. But its still relatively ambiguous. I’ll give you points if you bring up West Bank issues because that at least gets the idea of genocide correct.
But Gaza is just a war man. A really brutal one where they obviously don’t care about each other or civilians and such. Both my grandmothers were in the Philippines during WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Life sucked. But they won’t call the Japanese genocidal there.
We reserve the word “genocide” for the explicit… well… erasures of people… to put it mildly. As brutal as Israel has gotten here in Gaza, its not a top-down policy of erasure.
Settlement / land stealing? Sure, could be genocidal.
Forced sterilization like the Uyghurs? Yeah, Genocide.
Etc. etc.
I’m fine with any example that shows a real genocide here. But I know you don’t got any real example of genocidal programs occurring in Gaza.
If a perpetrator hides their intentions but otherwise still does the acts that count as genocide, is it no longer a genocide because the goal is not stated to be genocide? Does the same also apply for ethnic cleansing?
In US Law: the unwarranted death of someone can be:
Negligent Homicide (ie: “Intent” judged to be negligent level).
Manslaughter (ie: “Intent” judged to be reckless level).
Murder (ie: “Intent” judged to be… well… intentional).
The “intent” is the entire debate. You have to prove that a death was at negligence / reckelssness / intentional to level off between the various crimes. Genocide is the same thing, you have to prove intent as part of it.
We both can look at the death of people (or the death of thousands, tens of thousands, or millions) and agree upon the dead bodies. But with regards to common law and the meaning of our words: it isn’t “murder” unless it is intentional. And its not “genocide” unless the intent was to wipe out the population.
As such: a nuclear weapon (ie: Hiroshima or Nagasaki) is not considered genocide even if it kills far more people, far more quickly (and even innocent people) than anything Israel does today.
Obviously intent can be hidden. (Its still truly a murder if you intended for someone to die. Even if you pretend it was an accident). But a large component of the definition of genocide is indeed, the “intent” behind the actions. If you can’t prove intent, then at “best” you only have the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians.
Which… frankly should be enough of a point to your debate to ya know… make a point or whatever about Israel’s needless brutality on this matter. But if you overplay your word-choice and miscalculate / misuse the word genocide, you lose debate points.
The reason why I consider West Bank setter bullshit to be “possible genocide”, is because the entire damn point of land-stealing like that is to wipe out populations by squeezing them out of the land they live in. But bombs in population centers? (Even dumb bombs that Israel is using?) much harder to prove intent.
Its hard for me to draw a line. In the case of Hitler / Nazis, they were just openly proclaiming it and shouting it from the rooftops so its obviously an easy call.
The level at which the Chinese invoke upon the Uyghur and/or the Russians vs the Ukrainians is sufficient. Both deny the genocide, but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal. Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it. There’s not much killing style genocide (aside from the Ukrainian war / atrocities in Bucha), but this is clearly an intentional program.
So something like that. When I see Israelis specifically doing genocidal actions that have been organized on a mass scale, then it’d reach the level of “Genocide” that I’ve called the Chinese / Russians out on.
but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal.
So what about this shows intention for genocide? How does that count as genocide (intention included) but the bombing of civilian areas comprising ~50% children does not? One is the act of preventing an ethnic group from breeding, the second is much the same just delayed a number of years after conception. You can’t breed if the state sterilized you, and you can’t breed if your children don’t make it past childhood because the state killed them. This is only made worse by the fact that bombing children is far more violent than forced sterilizations.
Does the large scale “program” as you put it, to force Palestinians from their homes not factor into this? What about Israel shutting off water and food for millions of people?
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
How does that count as genocide (intention included) but the bombing of civilian areas comprising ~50% children does not?
Because historically speaking, mass bombing campaigns has never been considered a genocide.
but shutting off food and water to millions of civilians does not?
The issue at play here is that Hamas was incredibly shitty with the planning of their food security. There’s no requirement for two warring parties to be forced to feed their enemy. The issue at hand is that Hamas set up Gaza to become reliant upon Israel for both food and water (instead of say, Egypt, or other such potential partners in the region). When Hamas attacks Israel, Israel is in the right to shut off the food and water and fuel and electricity, because there’s no requirement to feed the enemy (excluding POWs or such situations you know what I mean).
In this case, its ambiguous because Israel continues to keep the aid deliveries open. Israel isn’t in charge of food anymore (and they shouldn’t be, and they never should have been to begin with). Its not like Siege of Lenningrad where all food aid was cut off entirely and the food aid was explicitly choked off / prevented from entering Leningrad.
Egypt and other parties are 100% allowed (and protected by Israel) to ship food to the south. That’s not what a genocide looks like. Historically, you can look at actual events of history (ex: Siege of Leningrad) if you want to see what a starvation tactic actually looks like.
show me the gas chambers and other mass-death centers
Its funny, because I’ve seen old school white nationalist Holocaust deniers say this exact same thing. Any effort to demonstrate the contrary results in blanket denialism - deny the sources, reject the images, insist on conspiracy-theory alternatives.
I have to wonder, if I present you with clear and damning evidence of the IDF conducting mass killings of civilian populations and mass imprisonment with the intention of killing the Arab population, will you accept it at face value or will you find an excuse to dismiss it?
The genocidal group is the dumbass Hamas
Hamas has no bomber jets. Hamas has no tanks. Hamas has no nuclear weapons. Hamas has no conscript army with years of training and ready access to equipment. Hamas has no prisons or schools or offices within Gaza. Hamas controls none of Gaza’s borders, nor do any of the countries bordering Gaza ally with Hamas. None of Hamas high level leadership can reside within the Gaza district without coming under artillery fire from Israel drones and mortars and bombers. And no one within the district of Gaza can present themselves as members of Hamas without being shot at or bombed by IDF security forces. A member of Hamas cannot lay a hand on the fence between the border of Israel and Gaza without risking extrajudicial killing, as evidenced by the 2018 Great March of Return, which resulted in 223 dead and over 9,000 Palestinians seriously wounded.
Consider the Israeli Samson Option, which proposes the wholesale nuclear annihilation of any country which successfully invades Israeli’s border.
Consider the Israeli Dahiya Doctrine, which outlines a strategy of systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure against any country which threatens Israeli border patrols. This strategy was most apparent during the '06 Lebanon War, which resulted in Israel leveling an entire quarter of Beirut.
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?
Ah right. They want all of it. No room left for Jews or Israel. What of the Israelis?
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
Oh right. They want to obliterate it. And guess what? this is just in the 2nd paragraph of Hamas’s founding documents.
Is singing “America the Beautiful” also a hate crime?
I have Hamas’s charter right here
You don’t. What you have is a link to a Yale Law library referencing a 1988 statement written up by Aḥmad Yāsīn. Yāsīn was arrested, tried, and sentenced by the Israeli government a year later, initially for life. However, he was released as part of a deal with Jordan, following a failed assassination attempt by Israel aimed at the far-more-moderate Khaled Mashal to reciprocally release the Mossad assassins involved in the murder attempt.
Incidentally, you have to look up the 1988 statement on a Yale Law website, rather than a library or data center located in Gaza, because Hamas is unable to host its own historical records thanks to
They want all of it. No room left for Jews or Israel.
The currently policy of Israel in the West Bank is to expand settlements into Palestinian territory and force Arabs further and further away from the major centers of commerce. The policy of Israel in Gaza has been to kettle the population and starve it into submission. Whatever an elderly Arab movement leader said in 1988, the existence of Hamas as an organization appears to only continue as a measure permitted by the Israeli government to divide Palestinians both politically and geographically. It is to prevent the collective political action of a unified Palestinian Authority in hopes of removing all Arabs from the Palestinian state.
Is singing “America the Beautiful” also a hate crime?
Okay, so after spending literally hours with me about how X is intent vs non-intent of genocide… I give you a demonstration of literally a call to literally and fucking erase Israel off the face of the Earth and suddenly its not a genocidal example of intent?
Good job. You’ve got a few posts to recalibrate or otherwise explain to me how this isn’t genocide and I really don’t care anymore about anything else you’re saying. You have to solve this issue right here, right now. Explain how this isn’t a genocidal goal. Where is Israel’s existence in Hamas’s plan?
Warsaw ghetto:
At its height, as many as 460,000 Jews were imprisoned there,[5] in an area of 3.4 km2 (1.3 sq mi).
353,846/sq mile
Gaza:
The Gaza Strip has almost exactly the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population. Its largest city, Gaza City, is more tightly packed than New York City, with more than 650,000 people living within its 18 square miles. 36,100/sq mile (it should be noted that the previously inhabited/habitable area has been greatly reduced through bombing)
So no, not exactly the same. However, Palestinians are a captive population without rights, redress, or freedom of movement…a lot like inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto were.
Uh huh. So… show me the gas chambers and other mass-death centers.
I get that this Nazi comparison is just hyperbole. But I’m calling you out on it. Comparing Jewish people to Nazis is… counterproductive. There’s no mass death center, or trains of civilians getting offloaded into camps where they dig their own graves and get gassed. Meanwhile, Hamas is using literally genocidal language and trying to wipe Israel off the map here.
The genocidal group is the dumbass Hamas in this conflict and you know it. Just because they’re dumbasses who don’t have the physical power / military strength to perform their promises doesn’t change the fact that Hamas is far closer to the literal Nazis in this example.
Not all genocides are alike. Not all use the same methods.
The closest thing to a genocide is the West Bank situation. But its still relatively ambiguous. I’ll give you points if you bring up West Bank issues because that at least gets the idea of genocide correct.
But Gaza is just a war man. A really brutal one where they obviously don’t care about each other or civilians and such. Both my grandmothers were in the Philippines during WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Life sucked. But they won’t call the Japanese genocidal there.
We reserve the word “genocide” for the explicit… well… erasures of people… to put it mildly. As brutal as Israel has gotten here in Gaza, its not a top-down policy of erasure.
Settlement / land stealing? Sure, could be genocidal.
Forced sterilization like the Uyghurs? Yeah, Genocide.
Etc. etc.
I’m fine with any example that shows a real genocide here. But I know you don’t got any real example of genocidal programs occurring in Gaza.
If a perpetrator hides their intentions but otherwise still does the acts that count as genocide, is it no longer a genocide because the goal is not stated to be genocide? Does the same also apply for ethnic cleansing?
In US Law: the unwarranted death of someone can be:
The “intent” is the entire debate. You have to prove that a death was at negligence / reckelssness / intentional to level off between the various crimes. Genocide is the same thing, you have to prove intent as part of it.
We both can look at the death of people (or the death of thousands, tens of thousands, or millions) and agree upon the dead bodies. But with regards to common law and the meaning of our words: it isn’t “murder” unless it is intentional. And its not “genocide” unless the intent was to wipe out the population.
As such: a nuclear weapon (ie: Hiroshima or Nagasaki) is not considered genocide even if it kills far more people, far more quickly (and even innocent people) than anything Israel does today.
Obviously intent can be hidden. (Its still truly a murder if you intended for someone to die. Even if you pretend it was an accident). But a large component of the definition of genocide is indeed, the “intent” behind the actions. If you can’t prove intent, then at “best” you only have the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians.
Which… frankly should be enough of a point to your debate to ya know… make a point or whatever about Israel’s needless brutality on this matter. But if you overplay your word-choice and miscalculate / misuse the word genocide, you lose debate points.
The reason why I consider West Bank setter bullshit to be “possible genocide”, is because the entire damn point of land-stealing like that is to wipe out populations by squeezing them out of the land they live in. But bombs in population centers? (Even dumb bombs that Israel is using?) much harder to prove intent.
So what would it take to convince you that it is intentional?
Its hard for me to draw a line. In the case of Hitler / Nazis, they were just openly proclaiming it and shouting it from the rooftops so its obviously an easy call.
The level at which the Chinese invoke upon the Uyghur and/or the Russians vs the Ukrainians is sufficient. Both deny the genocide, but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal. Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it. There’s not much killing style genocide (aside from the Ukrainian war / atrocities in Bucha), but this is clearly an intentional program.
So something like that. When I see Israelis specifically doing genocidal actions that have been organized on a mass scale, then it’d reach the level of “Genocide” that I’ve called the Chinese / Russians out on.
So what about this shows intention for genocide? How does that count as genocide (intention included) but the bombing of civilian areas comprising ~50% children does not? One is the act of preventing an ethnic group from breeding, the second is much the same just delayed a number of years after conception. You can’t breed if the state sterilized you, and you can’t breed if your children don’t make it past childhood because the state killed them. This is only made worse by the fact that bombing children is far more violent than forced sterilizations.
Does the large scale “program” as you put it, to force Palestinians from their homes not factor into this? What about Israel shutting off water and food for millions of people?
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
Because historically speaking, mass bombing campaigns has never been considered a genocide.
The issue at play here is that Hamas was incredibly shitty with the planning of their food security. There’s no requirement for two warring parties to be forced to feed their enemy. The issue at hand is that Hamas set up Gaza to become reliant upon Israel for both food and water (instead of say, Egypt, or other such potential partners in the region). When Hamas attacks Israel, Israel is in the right to shut off the food and water and fuel and electricity, because there’s no requirement to feed the enemy (excluding POWs or such situations you know what I mean).
In this case, its ambiguous because Israel continues to keep the aid deliveries open. Israel isn’t in charge of food anymore (and they shouldn’t be, and they never should have been to begin with). Its not like Siege of Lenningrad where all food aid was cut off entirely and the food aid was explicitly choked off / prevented from entering Leningrad.
Egypt and other parties are 100% allowed (and protected by Israel) to ship food to the south. That’s not what a genocide looks like. Historically, you can look at actual events of history (ex: Siege of Leningrad) if you want to see what a starvation tactic actually looks like.
Its funny, because I’ve seen old school white nationalist Holocaust deniers say this exact same thing. Any effort to demonstrate the contrary results in blanket denialism - deny the sources, reject the images, insist on conspiracy-theory alternatives.
I have to wonder, if I present you with clear and damning evidence of the IDF conducting mass killings of civilian populations and mass imprisonment with the intention of killing the Arab population, will you accept it at face value or will you find an excuse to dismiss it?
Hamas has no bomber jets. Hamas has no tanks. Hamas has no nuclear weapons. Hamas has no conscript army with years of training and ready access to equipment. Hamas has no prisons or schools or offices within Gaza. Hamas controls none of Gaza’s borders, nor do any of the countries bordering Gaza ally with Hamas. None of Hamas high level leadership can reside within the Gaza district without coming under artillery fire from Israel drones and mortars and bombers. And no one within the district of Gaza can present themselves as members of Hamas without being shot at or bombed by IDF security forces. A member of Hamas cannot lay a hand on the fence between the border of Israel and Gaza without risking extrajudicial killing, as evidenced by the 2018 Great March of Return, which resulted in 223 dead and over 9,000 Palestinians seriously wounded.
Consider the Israeli Samson Option, which proposes the wholesale nuclear annihilation of any country which successfully invades Israeli’s border.
Consider the Israeli Hannibal Directive, which advocates for the killing of Israel’s own population as an alternative to prisoner exchanges with Palestinians. A directive which appears to be consistent with the assassination of three prisoners taken during the October 7th raid, who were killed by Israeli snipers while attempting to flag down support in northern Gaza
Consider the Israeli Dahiya Doctrine, which outlines a strategy of systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure against any country which threatens Israeli border patrols. This strategy was most apparent during the '06 Lebanon War, which resulted in Israel leveling an entire quarter of Beirut.
Consider an entire subpage of Wikipedia dedicated to Massacres committed by Israel
Then tell me again about how Hamas is the real genocidal group.
Are you fucking kidding me? From the River to the Sea. So tell me, according to Hamas, how much land should the Jewish people get under their plan?
Oh, don’t worry. I don’t need you to answer that. I have Hamas’s charter right here. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp Lets see… which line should I pick out?
Ah right. They want all of it. No room left for Jews or Israel. What of the Israelis?
Oh right. They want to obliterate it. And guess what? this is just in the 2nd paragraph of Hamas’s founding documents.
Is singing “America the Beautiful” also a hate crime?
You don’t. What you have is a link to a Yale Law library referencing a 1988 statement written up by Aḥmad Yāsīn. Yāsīn was arrested, tried, and sentenced by the Israeli government a year later, initially for life. However, he was released as part of a deal with Jordan, following a failed assassination attempt by Israel aimed at the far-more-moderate Khaled Mashal to reciprocally release the Mossad assassins involved in the murder attempt.
Incidentally, you have to look up the 1988 statement on a Yale Law website, rather than a library or data center located in Gaza, because Hamas is unable to host its own historical records thanks to
Furthermore, it should be noted that the current Prime Minister of Israel has been content with using Hamas as leverage against the Palestinian authority for decades. To quote Philidelphia’s favorite son, Benjamin Netanyahu, “Those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.”
The currently policy of Israel in the West Bank is to expand settlements into Palestinian territory and force Arabs further and further away from the major centers of commerce. The policy of Israel in Gaza has been to kettle the population and starve it into submission. Whatever an elderly Arab movement leader said in 1988, the existence of Hamas as an organization appears to only continue as a measure permitted by the Israeli government to divide Palestinians both politically and geographically. It is to prevent the collective political action of a unified Palestinian Authority in hopes of removing all Arabs from the Palestinian state.
Okay, so after spending literally hours with me about how X is intent vs non-intent of genocide… I give you a demonstration of literally a call to literally and fucking erase Israel off the face of the Earth and suddenly its not a genocidal example of intent?
Good job. You’ve got a few posts to recalibrate or otherwise explain to me how this isn’t genocide and I really don’t care anymore about anything else you’re saying. You have to solve this issue right here, right now. Explain how this isn’t a genocidal goal. Where is Israel’s existence in Hamas’s plan?
My guy what are you talking about?
https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1739897895908692242
Warsaw ghetto: At its height, as many as 460,000 Jews were imprisoned there,[5] in an area of 3.4 km2 (1.3 sq mi). 353,846/sq mile
Gaza: The Gaza Strip has almost exactly the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population. Its largest city, Gaza City, is more tightly packed than New York City, with more than 650,000 people living within its 18 square miles. 36,100/sq mile (it should be noted that the previously inhabited/habitable area has been greatly reduced through bombing)
So no, not exactly the same. However, Palestinians are a captive population without rights, redress, or freedom of movement…a lot like inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto were.