Summary
Many Americans joining China’s social media platform RedNote are encountering strict censorship uncommon in Western platforms.
One non-binary user had a post asking if the platform welcomed gay people removed within hours.
Posts on LGBTQ+ topics, fitness photos, and sensitive cultural content have been censored, frustrating users unfamiliar with China’s moderation rules.
RedNote is hiring English-language moderators to handle the influx. While some users enjoy cultural exchange, others criticize restrictions.
Analysts see RedNote’s growth among US users as a soft power win for China.
So mh maybe spread shit talk in ALL languages on rednote for break them by their censoring?
They mean the second time. I’m sure they mean the second time.
Leopards and Faces…
Well color me constipated, because no shit.
This is why I’m against using Rednote myself. Just try searching tiananmen square in Rednote and you won’t get any results.
Oh, well that makes it completely useless then.
Someone here was defending it the other day claiming that China wouldn’t use it for propaganda purposes because politics is banned there.
They didn’t see the problem with that.
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Are you seriously suggesting that the bloodbathed atrocities committed by the Chinese government on innocent student protestors in Tiananmen Square never happened?
People did get killed, but no one died in the Square, and calling it a “massacre” is a stretch. Here are some NSFW/NFSL images and here is a video what actually went on with tank man (who blocked tanks from leaving the square, not entering it).
I think that’s splitting hairs and a purposeful distraction from the point that the Chinese government’s murdered innocent people.
To say- “but it happened near the square, not AT it!” is nothing short of disingenuous.
And for the record, they said the west “made it up”. Misinformation at its finest.
Leaving aside the fact that nobody questions that Roth was detained for 20 hours by the Chinese government and quite possibly bribed or blackmailed.
Quite a few of the people killed were unarmed military & police, which means that at least some of the “peaceful” protesters were not as peaceful as Western media portray them.
Did the Chinese military kill innocent students protestors or not?
Answer the question without splitting hairs and distractions.
Did they, or did they not?
Given that a few hundred people died, I think it’s safe to assume that government agents must have killed at least some nonviolent protesters, yes. I don’t know anyone who’d dispute that.
Here’s an archive of the link from that CBS page, since it’s broken now: https://web.archive.org/web/20090606124946/https://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/04/world/worldwatch/entry5061564.shtml
It talks about the soldiers shooting people outside Tiananmen Square. This is the event that “the Tiananmen Square Massacre” refers to. The number of people killed ranges from tens to hundreds to thousands, depending on who you ask, plus more wounded, but nobody can deny that there wasn’t a massacre.
Thank you
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Now I am quite ready for you to disengage, shut down, and just yell and say I am a crazy person
Do you see a .ml after my name?
And if that’s the “normal response” you’re accustomed to, then maybe other people aren’t the problem.
No, my response is to end this now and to stop engaging in a discussion that is clearly pointless. I’ve said what needed be said on the matter.
Anyone who has been using Xitter over the last couple of years has already experienced Chinese style censorship.
Chinese style censorship is more consistent, though. No one is making up rules on the fly.
This is consistent. Anything that makes the racists, fascists, incels, tech bros, and billionaires uncomfortable is blocked.
What makes them uncomfortable could change tomorrow.
Did mentions of Tiananmen Square make China uncomfortable before 1989 or did that change? Did mentions of Winnie the Pooh make China uncomfortable before 2017 or did that change?
I’m not sure what point you were trying to make.
My point was just that Musk has very thin skin.
And Xi doesn’t?
The point was obvious…
Chinese censorship is planned and targeted, with the intent to control and suppress dissent. It works hard to maintain a narrative and prevent excessive and rapid shifts so as to achieve a long term goal of control.
The billionaires running American social media (with a special shout to Musk) are mercurial and subject to the petty whims and feelings of the owner.
So while yes, obviously both change and the heads of the CCP are also occasionally subject to emotional responses, the differences between the two are stark and obvious. So no, “everything technically changes” is not a valid counter to the significant differences in intent and volatility.
Claiming you don’t understand the point they were making is just being intentionally obtuse.
I’m sure your point was very clear in your head but it may not be obvious to you that other people can’t read your mind. Suggesting that anyone who doesn’t get your opaque point is being obtuse is arrogant and childish.
Do better.
That is a comparatively slow rate of change, don’t you think so?
That was only two representative examples. Do you actually want me to make an exhaustive list of all of the changes that have happened over time to the Chinese censorship regime?
That is a poor defence of censorship.
I’m not trying to defend it, just saying that as bad as Chinese censorship is, Musk is worse.
China censors all literature, film, music, and internet discourse employing advanced technologies and multiple tens of thousands of people while also running the world’s largest prison for journalist. VPNs are blocked. Apps like Signal are blocked. Online gaming for minors is limited to 3 hours per day on weekends and holidays only. People get harassed by police for what they post online. Many go to jail for criticizing the government, spreading pornography or health related sexual content (including anything LGBT), supporting Taiwanese independence, or casting doubt on Chinese folk legends. Then, in addition to that (which I have not even begun to do justice to), all media companies run their own internal censorship regimes so as not to get in trouble with the authorities. And this rolls downhill: you the individual self-censor to not get in trouble with your boss or worse.
Yeah… I don’t think you’re the expert on China censorship you present yourself as.
I think you just regurgitated every piece of Cold War propaganda & every rumor about Chinese censorship that you’ve ever heard.
Which of my statements do you disagree with? How would you characterize the state of freedom of speech in the PRC?
You don’t think that’s exactly where the US is heading?
To the contrary… it’s a real concern. That’s why we shouldn’t falsely equivocate the CCP censorship apparatus to the haphazard moderation impulses of a childish social media CEO.
We’ve got a lot more to lose, especially with the long-emerging (and currently accelerating) conflux of state and social media.
For insurance, the pending KOSA bill opens a huge opportunity for future government censorship: https://www.techdirt.com/2024/12/09/new-kosa-same-as-old-kosa-but-now-with-elons-ignorant-endorsement/
Heading is different from already being there.
Is there a pedant brigade or something?
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Lol I’m almost permanently shadow banned from youtube for the same reason, only rarely do my comments actually show up, and I can’t even reply to my own comment. The funny thing is I made just one comment to trip their alarm, because everything else I write comments about are usually memes and YTP.
I also saw a fairly well liked reddit mod get banned by the site admins for stating Israel is an ethnostate.
Thn first amendment protects you against censhorship by the government only, so yeah facebook can censor yoyr speech
So if you wanted to talk shit about Israel you could spin up your own lemmy instance and there’s nothing the government or anyone else can do about.
Can the same be said about Mainland Taiwan?
Many Americans joining China’s social media platform RedNote are encountering strict censorship uncommon in Western platforms.
This has nothing to do with the first amendment in the first place.
Being banned from FB however as everything to do with common censorship on western platforms.
The fuck did they expect going to a Chinese platform
Well the tankies seem to think that China is actually a Utopia that the western governments are hiding from us, so naturally there shouldn’t be any censorship issues lol
People moving to Red Note aren’t tankies and I’ve only heard people who describe what tankies say that tankies think China is a utopia that our governments are hiding from us. Kinda like Ben Shapiro describing what “the left” people say or do.
lemmy.ca has some tankie instances defederated, so it would make sense why you don’t see what tankies are saying
https://lemmy.ca/instancesBut I do agree that people using rednote aren’t tankies.
I wish .ca would list a reason for defederation.
If you checked out those tankie instances or listened to them in your home instance for just a few minutes, you wouldn’t have to ask lol.
.world still federates with .ml and man those guys can have the most braindead takes… and they’re one of the more reasonable tankie instances.
Oh .ca is still with .ml, I go there to laugh every once in a while.
This can help, but it’s reports against instances in general and not specifically from .ca https://gui.fediseer.com/instances/censured
“I’m an American and have a right to free speech, no matter what country the service is hosted in!”
That’s certainly what certain people on lemmy.world seem to think despite the server being in The Netherlands.
But what if there is no country that “allows” the speech you want to say? I want to call for the beheading of billionaires. I assume you don’t think I should be able to do that?
My question is how much of these articles are manufactured outrage. Like, I can’t imagine anybody expected anything different - especially since some of this stuff is censored already on American social media (especially LGBT related stuff), and the media has spent 50 years telling Americans how much censorship there is in China and the Great Firewall.
Probably 90% from my personal experience, I see loads of LGBTQ posts on RedNote. I wonder if they’re being sensored or just waiting to go through the moderation queue.
I could see English posts maybe accumulating negative sentiment scores or even just a lack of known words causing a post to end up in a moderation queue.
For reference sentiment scores are basically a numeric way of scoring a post. Words like “hate” get -10 points neutral words get 1 point, and positive words like love and friendship get +10 points. At least when I was in college, this was a popular way for social media to determine if they should push your content or not.
I said in another comment about what I learned from following a Chinese lesbian on Twitter is that with China it’s like “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” - you can say and do things that you could or should get in trouble for, but as long as you do it the right way, it’ll be overlooked.
There’s gay bars and a big lesbian scene in China, but there’s a common practice there, that used to happen in Europe and the US as well before the culture shifted, where lesbians get married to men - either gay guys or just a guy they have an arrangement with - to fulfill the cultural obligation expected of them to get married, and then they basically live their own separate lives.
So most likely what’s happening is people who don’t know the cultural do’s and don’t’s are getting censored for stepping over the line.
But LGBTQ stuff is censored all the time on other social media anyway, whenever they think they can get away with it, so it’s not like it’s all that surprising - especially when you add in China’s official stance on LGBTQ people.
These feel like they’re freaking out about something that everybody already knew was gonna happen, and omitting the fact that it happens elsewhere as well to make it seem like a big deal.
This is all just leading up to the TikTok savior Trump winning over the youth crowd. If you force them to a platform that is much worse, they will forget how controlling the previous platform was and just be happy to have it.
You are assuming TikTokers have any intelligence, morals, principle or talent (or even humanity)
This is an extremely weird take.
On Lemmy it’s not, this place is filled with pseudo-intellectuals with no critical thinking abilities at all. They literally have no idea what a ban like this means. The problem is I can’t tell I’d they’re shills or worse, they really think this is a good thing cuz “le short videos bad”. I’m starting to think that only the worst people from reddit came here.
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Ikr, that’s the whole world, not just TikTok users.
Somehow TikTokers even surpass that (Along with Twitch streamers)
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Who Lemmy.World ??
There’s a lot of gay people on the app this is strait up lies. Holy shit my eyes are open to this bullshit
Gay=/= enby
You can just go on the app and you’ll see it for yourself, they don’t bite.
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There’s lots of posts of people asking opinions about LGBT stuff and the platform has a large lesbian community.
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The app is originally more popular with women and the norm is to assume anonymous users are female, “sis” is considered complementary and a sign of acceptance.
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My Hero Academia is considered cancelled because the manga included a reference to Unit 731, which did some real Nazi shit in WWII.
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Chinese politics and history post-revolution is a sensitive topic and generally avoided. If you’re planning to go there so you can tell them about Tienanmen Square and how their government is evil, don’t bother lol.
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There are a few Western fascists trying to get on there, probably in hopes that the moderators won’t recognize their dogwhistles (things like 1488, groyper, etc). They banned Nick Fuentes before he could post anything because they recognized the name, and I’ve seen posts circulating warning about their keywords. Hopefully the moderators they’re hiring will help nip it in the bud.
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Generally, like, remember that you’re a guest and your experience will probably be fine. I’ve been surprised at both sides being respectful, and people are generally happy to have us. I’m sure there’s parts of the Chinese internet that are much less pleasant but RedBook seems like a pretty amiable cultural crossing point. It’s a unique opportunity to see another perspective without just going out on your own and there’s no telling how long it’ll last.
I am taking lots of notes from all the Chinese spies so that I can become a better Chinese spy for everyone here on Lemmy 🤗
Chinese politics and history post-revolution is a sensitive topic and generally avoided. If you’re planning to go there so you can tell them about Tienanmen Square and how their government is evil, don’t bother lol.
Do you think maybe that’s possibly a bad thing?
From my experience, it’s a place for lighthearted fun.
I hated using Instagram and Facebook because of the toxic right-wingers always starting shit.
So imagine my surprise when these right-wing instigators actually get banned when I report them on RedNote.
Get wrecked idiots, finally a social app with an actual code of conduct.
This is the irony of it all. People are encountering Chinese censorship and realizing they prefer it over American censorship. XD
Ridiculous. I’ve seen comments removed from tiktok for using the word dumb, but some right wing Russian bot comes along and says the most evil, vile shit you’ve ever seen and you report it and the moderators always just happen to not find anything wrong with it. That’s not ‘American censorship’ that’s bullshit.
That’s literally American censorship and you can see the same pattern on all large American social media platforms. Youtube has the gamer to fascist pipeline set up with their recommendation system. Facebook recently did an “about face” which was really just making official their love of fascism. Twitter… is twitter. The capitalist class has always been fine with fascism and the platforms they own reflect that. Language is policed more than fascist rhetoric because advertisers don’t like the language.
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this is disgusting. personally I prefer lgbtq related posts be censored by companies like Facebook and Twitter instead.
cisgender is hate speech, y’all
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It just went back online
Yep, hopefully they see that just because the US is shitty that China can’t be worse.
They both suck equally in my book
Then you have successfully fallen for china’s propaganda.
Living and working conditions in China for most citizens are horrific, far beyond even the worst problems we see in the US.
Source: have pooped through a hole in the bottom of a moving train in China, and also visited a foxconn
jailfactory.At least they have a train…
The train is for city folk to get between cities, rural folk can’t afford it.
have pooped through a hole in the bottom of a moving train in China
Sorry, but that sounds like an upgrade to me. Pooping has gotten so boring lately, but that sounds exciting! I’d pay good money to experience taking a miles-long dump.
Imagine you’re lost in the Chinese wilderness
“I can smell the train tracks!”
The CCP think of everything
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There’s a train in Belgium with an open hole for the bathroom? What year was this in?
Ive been to China for work. Must be why they have mega cities there. Couldn’t be poor people exist in both countries. Never said I like the Chinese government.
There are more Chinese people living on less than $10 per day than total Americans.
The median household income is close to 1/10th of the US amount.
The US poverty situation simply cannot compare.
They also have a population of over a billion people. What misleading point are you trying to make? The U.S. is literally the richest country in the world.
The point I’m trying to make is in relation to the original comment that stated that both countries suck equally.
They do not suck equally, and it’s not even close.
Dude, I grew up poor as dirt in this country. You can suck an egg trying to tell me that.
And just what were they making in that Fozconn factory? Ohhh American electronics.
Actually foxconn makes a ton of the low-cost android and android go phones used in China, India, Indonesia, and Africa. Many of the phones made by foxconn (like HMD/Nokia for example) barely register as having sold units in the US.
How does that make it any better that the Chinese government lets it happen?
Living and working conditions in China for most citizens are horrific, far beyond even the worst problems we see in the US.
Okay I hate China as much as the next guy but this can’t be true. CCP treatment of a small subset of its citizens is horrible, but they can get by despite that because they’re able to competently run the country for the rest of the population. There’s an implied consent here of the sort you typically see in stable dictatorships.
It can be true. There are more Chinese people living on less than $10 per day than there are total Americans.
Absolutely not a China stan or anything. I’m pretty solidly against any government that allows the existence of billionaires. But judging a system by the amount of us dollars people live off of is a pretty metric. I have 100 monies, does that buy me a condo or a condom? I have 100 million monies, can I afford to eat tonight? Depends on the cost of living, the inflation rate, so many factors.
What percentage of their populace is homeless, has access to clean water, has access to the Internet? Or if you’re dead set on using the amount of people living off a set amount of dollars, at least provide some info on what 10usd gets you in China, and if there’s a big difference depending on geography?
Again, not a China stan, I think their censorship is shitty, I think their about as socialist as Nebraska, and that the Chinese government has hurt the socialist movement pretty severely by leaning into capitalism and abandoning any truly socialist ideals in exchange for international strength. In fairness, I’m also not a fan of the US. Just so you understand my position here. I’m not jumping to the defense of either, they certainly don’t need my help.
You can google these things yourself if you wanted.
About 90% of the Chinese population has access to clean water, which means around 140 million people still do not, and that’s by China’s own reported numbers and standards. It’s probably worse than that in reality.
There are more Chinese people without access to the internet than the total US population, About 77% have access, and that metric does not measure households with internet, it’s just people who have ANY access, including using a cheap phone only at public WIFI locations.
Of course there’s a big difference based on location, some cities on the coasts are exceptionally wealthy compared to rural inland areas.
The point wasn’t that I wanted the info, friend. The point was to demonstrate how shitty a metric X USD is.
You gotta take into account cost of living differences there or you’re not making much of a point. There are countries in the world where living off 10 dollars a day would make you solidly upper middle class. I’d know; I come from one of them. Either way your claim that living conditions for “most citizens” are horrific doesn’t hold much water when their middle class is still one of the fastest growing in the world.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted, this seems pretty irrefutable and apolitical haha
Their middle class is one of the fastest growing in the world simply because so many people are still in poverty.
They have 140 million people (around 10%) that don’t even have access to clean water, and about 20% that don’t have access (any access) to the internet.
Even if you take into account PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) Chinese citizens, the median Chinese family is FAR worse off than the Median American.
Not equal, China is better at censorship, tracking, and social pressure. They own the corporations and businesses. Go to other countries to kidnap their citizens that talked bad about them.
US corps own the government, not seeing how that’s better. Also, the US does kidnap people who they don’t like internationally as well.
What if we didn’t do oppression olympics and needless political division for 5 minutes. Every gov sucks in its own way, so do corps, but people, including Chinese people are awesome.
They suck and excel at different things. For example the US doesn’t have high speed rail while China doesn’t have military bases around the globe.
Actually the Chinese high speed rail is littered with issues. Safety is obviously an issue, most stories that escape the bubble and make it west are about steel quality in the tracks causing cracking and closures.
The other issue is economics. Sure, China has a lot of high speed rail, but a lot of it goes nowhere important, connecting small cities where a normal train line would have been more economical and practical for the sole reason of claiming more high speed rail than any ither country. This has lead to a huge expansion in the governments “hidden debt” to over 1 trillion usd from the rail line operator alone. This is only for laying the lines themselves does not even account for new trains or maitenance or stations and services.
Also, if the recognized speed of high speed rail is 125mph like wikipedia says, America has a decent amount, it just so happens large cities are spread apart across the continent and flying is more economical than high speed rail.
Can’t say anything about quality issues.
I can say a few things about the economics. It doesn’t matter whether some or all of this rail is economical or not. Countless infrastructure projects around the world are built without them being economical. The half-a-trillion US interstate highway network was likely not economical either. Infrastructure like that has two important purposes. One’s to support future use. Given the speed with which cities have appeared and filled with people in China, or expanded in the US, a rail line or a large highway corridor support this urbanization. Urbanization creates significant economic growth. The other purpose is finding work for people who then spend their wages in the rest of the economy. So long as there isn’t shortage in real resources - people, concrete, iron, etc. - spending money for this increases domestic consumption and therefore economic growth. Functionally doesn’t matter if the money was created via debt or printed. You can cancel or pay that debt by printing the amount. The debt is typically created out of thin air anyways. Western counties used to this too prior to the neoliberal era when there was slack in the economy. These days we have a lot of bullshit jobs that serve a similar purpose. I think both things considered, HSR buildout in China is solid long term planning, despite of its growing pains.
On what’s high speed rail, I’m thinking ETR500/1000 like the Frecciarossa 1000 in Italy. Those regularly go at 300kph. Looking at Amtrak’s wiki:
Amtrak’s network includes over 500 stations along 21,400 miles (34,000 km) of track. It directly owns approximately 623 miles (1,003 km) of this track and operates an additional 132 miles of track; the remaining mileage is over rail lines owned by other railroad companies. While most track speeds are limited to 79 mph (127 km/h) or less, several lines have been upgraded to support top speeds of 110 mph (180 km/h), and parts of the Northeast Corridor support top speeds of 160 mph (260 km/h).
It seems only parts of the Northeast Corridor get close to that. There’s plenty of geographic high speed rail opportunity in the US that would eliminate short haul flights which have the worst carbon footprint of all flights. There’s no public investment appetite for it. There’s barely enough public funding to maintain the existing roadway infrastructure. Plus I’m sure airlines donate good money to government officials to ensure HSR isn’t a threat to their profits.
Mainland Taiwan per usual I see.
I wonder what happens if you post winnie the poo shit.
They have a lot of pooh posts mainly from the ride at Disney there.
Dude yea I went to the app. I see the posts I was curious about it as well. There are a lot of Winnie the pooh posts you can see. Like go there yourself.
You’re literally parroting bullshit
This is the crux of it. People are so used to getting away with “bravely” parroting Western Cold War propaganda that even the mildest push-back is experienced as a massive affront.
The reason the US is more lax about censorship is that they can afford to because people are so gullible they’ll believe anything they’re told regardless of their own, lying eyes.
I’m sure it’s still exponentially better than censoring all free speech and critical opinion, and only being fed what your government mandates you a need to know.
Go on… ask china how they feel about Tiananmen Square. Better yet, how about you go ahead and show me some material from all those North Korean comedians taking about how incompetent their government is.
Man… It really blows my mind how much lemmy is a microcosm of how shit is in the world.
You .ml folk sure like to come here and sling your shit in .world and pretend that things like free speech is somehow something to shit on, when you know damn well we can’t respond in kind in your house. It’s interesting how you all seem to enjoy the freedom you have here to say dumb shit every day- knowing that you have a safe space to run back to when people call you out.
Remember that.
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You say you’ve provided direct proof? What proof? Additionally, you haven’t confronted me on anything. I only just came in here to call out your nonsense.
Oh, and you know damn well that I’m not wrong. It’s easy to prove that .ml shuts down any narrative that casts a shadow on their broken-assed ideology. And if you even think to deny this, I’ll have you look at the modlogs as evidence.
Unfortunately though, here you remain, rattling on with your misguided rhetoric- arrogantly positing opinions and seemingly demanding to be taken seriously.
Suffice it to say, lemmy is a microcosm of the real would. It’s plain to see that the communist blathering of .ml is an attempted emulation of the countries they blindly worship. Which in and of itself would be fine. People should be allowed to be as foolish and ignorant as they chose. But the problem lies when they all come here accusing bias and unfair treatment.
Utterly mind-blowing it is! To see so many people that claim to hate America and westernized media spending so much of their time contributing to its success. In contrast…
Consider looking through my comment history. See how many times I’ve wasted my time posting or commenting in a .ml community. See how many times I’ve debated with people there. Then compare that to the overwhelming amount of time you spend here debating with people that will probably never agree with you.
Kind regards!
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“Everything is propaganda except CCP propaganda”
You tankies are fucking wild.
Why even bother talking with y’all? If I prove something you say is wrong, you just switch to something else (and yet you’re always accusing us of whataboutism!) and put words into my mouth that I never said. If you want to let yourself be deceived, I can’t stop you, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
Some devs in China must be working overtime to create separate infrastructure for the US so that censors aren’t overwhelmed and miss things Chinese people aren’t supposed to see. 😂
Let’s get the vpns ready and use burners! Fuck censorship!
Non-Chinese devices can’t access Douyin even with VPN, though.
Already done I’m sure.
