Do you seriously suggest that calling the literal Jewish state a bunch of Nazis actually holds any staying power politically? Or do you think its like one of those crappy slogans like “Occupy Wall Street” or “Defund the Police” that only makes Republicans stronger?
Think about your political statements/memes before spreading them. At least a little bit.
Take your win with regards to BiBi being a far-right asshole leading an Ethnostate. That’s PLENTY to discuss there about how trying to take down their Supreme Court is probably a bad move, or how Bibi’s politics with Hamas were bad for Israel/Gaza citizens but good for Bibi politically (and the asshole did what was best politically for him personally, rather than thinking about the greater picture), and I’d argue is at least a proximate cause of this war.
But the Nazi comparison is fucking laughable and horribly ignorant, and is a horrible overstep of the left.
Hey American here. From our perspective, the #1 thing the Nazis are known for is for killing Jews.
So if you want to have an argument that actually holds in American politics, at least think about what the mainstream opinion is and how it plays into things.
If you invoke Hitler in this argument, it will only increase the people’s resolve to fund Israel more as it will remind people of the Holocaust. This line of argument does not go the way you think it does over here. Its a hopeless misplay.
Hey American here. From our perspective, the #1 thing the Nazis are known for is for killing Jews.
I’m an American, and if that’s all you understand about the Nazi regime, then that’s your failing. Everything should not have to be dumbed down to a level you can understand. Go read a book, visit one of the camps, listen to the survivors.
The Nazis are an apt comparison for the actions of Israel as they undertake the extermination of Palestinians.
You know the USA had a segregated army and literal internment camps holding Japanese “traitors” around our country, right? We literally can’t hate on the Nazis for being racist because we did that shit.
USA didn’t get rid of segregation for at least 3 decades after the WW2 era. My Dad grew up in the segregated south: Virginia in the 1970s. I think you’re underestimating how much racist culture is still around here.
What is taught in American schools is that the Nazis tried to kill all the Jews. Its not wrong, but its a big emphasis on Judeo-Christian culture and the mainstream of American thought. You’re not going to get the typical American to think that Israel is Nazi, you’re just not.
You’d be surprised to learn that the concept of lebensraum was derived from “manifest destiny” and learned a lot of their pre-Holocaust oppression from the US.
We literally can’t hate on the Nazis for being racist because we did that shit.
Yes, we literally can. Racism is always bad. It’s bad in the US, it was bad in Nazi Germany, it was bad in South Africa, and it’s bad in Israel. People are capable of extrapolating beyond the group being oppressed to recognize when a comparable group is receiving a comparable type of oppression. In this case, Israel is committed to a genocide comparable to the Holocaust.
I think I can agree that removal of racism and all that would be nice, and we’re entering a political reality where this is possible. But you’re asking for something more: for Americans to understand your weird-ass argument about calling the Israeli government a Nazi regime.
Which will not work. That’s the core crux of this issue. Its an entirely insane argument by American standards. As I said earlier: the left has made a ton of rallying cries over the past decade. Some worked, some (like “Defund the Police”) utterly failed and instead made Republicans stronger. If this “The Jewish state of Israel is Nazi” argument actually reaches meme status, you’ll destroy the credibility of the left.
Okay, go tell the American people that. They’ll get confused. I promise you. The politics will not work the way you expect.
Nazis == Holocaust. That’s the #1 focus in our schools. You’re going to be working against like, our culture, if you try to go deeper than that. As I said earlier, this line of discussion will not go the way you expect.
Any government is capable of fascism and capable of genocide. If that’s too complicated for you, go sit at the kids ta-… Don’t talk to my kids go sit outside.
Any government is capable of fascism and capable of genocide.
There’s an explicitly fascist and genocidal player in this conflict. And spoiler alert, it isn’t the Israelis.
I think you might want to check on the people who had an election on 25 January 2006, seized power after that and refused any further elections. Explicitly run a Muslim ethno-state and terrorist tactics, and wish to kill the Jews from “River to the Sea”.
Hey ding dong, not every Palestinian is a member of Hamas and the average age of Palestinians is 19. The average Palestinian did not vote in 2006.
Yet Israel cut the power, food, and aid for the entire nation because of terrorists that live among them. Then they proceeded to murder over 20,000 civilians (almost certainly an undercount). And in their bloodlust, they managed to execute 3 people waving a white flag with their shirts off… Hostages.
You want to talk about how terrible Hamas is when the IDF is indiscriminately killing everyone they find? Dropping bombs in the most population dense regions of the world?
The world isn’t black and white, there can be two terrible actors. And right now, the IDF has already killed 20x the number of people killed by Hamas on Oct 7. With no signs of wanting to stop.
And for someone that wants to “school” people on history, perhaps take the 5 seconds to Google what “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” means. Hint, it’s not “kill all the Jews in Israel”.
Maybe Hamas should get uniforms and follow the international rules of War so that Israel knows who to bomb and who is a civilian. Hmmmmm?
Without uniforms, without a regular army, Hamas is causing this problem to occur to their own people.
Geniva conventions don’t just apply to Israel. They also apply to Hamas, and Hamas is breaking a metric ton of rules here. The natural result is that Israel doesn’t want to play by the rules either.
American here. Would you care to explain to me how Israel can be compared to Nazis? My stupid brain can only understand Good guy vs bad guy movie tropes. Please give me a break.
I went to public school and can clearly see the comparison between a far-right Zionist Israel and Nazism without getting tripped up on the Jews being the largest target during the Holocaust. Not only that, but with the shrinking of Palestinian owned land and illegal Israeli Settlers I can also make the comparison to Manifest Destiny and the relocation of Native American people, even though Palestinians aren’t Cherokee.
Attempting to expand Israeli lands for Israeli jews and pushing out Palestinians with no source of aid for those displaced, as well as blocking aid and giving extremely short timelines to escape the encroaching Frontlines very much falls in line with Nazi ideology.
The Nation of Islam and the American Nazi Party had common goals despite being mutually exclusive. I don’t think it’s that far of a stretch to compare Israel with the Nazis.
In particular, Israeli borders have been set since 1967 and they even returned the Sinai peninsula after the 7 day war.
So please, show me where Israeli conquest in the past 50 years (1973 to 2023) led to expanded Israeli territory.
Ah right, there wasn’t any expansion of territory at all. It’s like they aren’t invoking Lebensraum at all.
illegal Israeli Settlers
Yes. This is a problem. But they are as you put it, illegal. The issue here is not one of law or even the Israeli government, but instead the people at the bottom trying to reclaim their lands. Or so they think anyway, everyone has a claim here so it gets rather complex.
Israel needs to punish those illegal settlers in the West Bank more. But guess what? The West Bank settler issue is in the West Bank, not Gaza.
So if you are talking about Gaza specifically, you’ve already lost the settler debate because there are no Israeli Settlers moving into Gaza.
“invoking Lebensraum” sounds so awfully off. You apporach this discussion in a condescending fashion, yet you sound rather… superficially informed. “Lebensraum” is not a program that gets “invoked”. It’s the German word for “habitat” or “living space” and was not as prevalent in Nazi ideology as especially US-discussions make it seem. Furthermore, “Lebensraum” alone is not a Nazi-thing. It’s “Lebensraum im Osten”. “Lebensraum” is a word that’s common in German today. “Der Lebensraum des Pandabären ist in Gefahr” “The habitat of the pandabear is in danger”. So whenever someone starts yelling “Lebensraum” and starts to act smug in Nazi-debates, they actually disqualified themselves to German ears.
Okay cool. So tell me when the Israelis have called for it.
You’re begging the question and avoiding the crux of the issue, because you know you this entire line of discussion is bullshit. And I don’t blame you. I’m just calling yall out on it.
Even if it’s not effective the comparison still holds true. I honestly don’t know the best way to approach people who deny genocide. But I think not calling something for what it is is a mistake.
Okay. Give me the Bibi’s quote where he’s willing to genocide the Gaza people.
Bibi is enough of an asshole that we can defeat him just on what he has already done. There’s no point making up crimes to bring this man down. Just use the facts, the real life facts and actions hes done, and don’t exaggerate.
Bibi is trying to pretend it is voluntary while also trying to make Palestine unlivable to that they ‘voluntarily’ leave to avoid it being so obviously the same thing, so we might not have a recent quote of him literally saying it but we have his intended outcome and the actions he has taken.
Gosh, you know, I didn’t want to debate you but for the love of fuck, just admit you are wrong for one second.
What? Tell the American people history? Really? Ugh.
Somehow you seem to believe that what you were taught as a kid is necessarily true because you got taught that, no other reason whatsoever.
You’re going to be working against like, our culture,
You keep saying WE, and OUR, but I doubt that most Americans would associate with you.
I thought you wanted to leave the debate yesterday?
Whatever. I’m wrong. Happy? Feels shallow doesn’t it? That’s probably not what you wanted.
If you actually want to pick up where the discussion left off, my latest post and point-counterpoint is over there. Not here. We already covered this post.
Edit: I’m fine picking back where we left off. But if you want to rehash and replay our debate yesterday, just reread what we already wrote. I’m not wasting my time replaying the same conversation.
Fucking top kek. If that’s all your learned about Nazis then I don’t think you paid attention in school and just read the cliff notes.
You should think concentration camps that work people to death in order to fund a warachine that teaches the “chosen few” that they are superior in every way because it’s nice to have a scapegoat and free labor.
That starts to sound really familiar to a country that has relied on pretty much the same sentiment to keep its place. And pictures of mass graves is gonna do more to remind people of the Holocaust and the people of Gaza aren’t standing outside the pit.
Also it should really teach you to be cautious of people who offer simple plans and assume victory is granted for simply wanting it.
Hey American here. From our perspective, the #1 thing the Nazis are known for is for killing Jews.
I ain’t American but you should probably try not to speak for everyone like that. I have two American friends and I doubt they’d be this ignorant about history.
the #1 thing the Nazis are known for is for killing Jews.
Guess you didn’t hear about the time Israel was administering long term birth control to Ethiopian immigrant Jews without their consent? That’s classified as a form of genocide.
Hey American here. From our perspective, the #1 thing the Nazis are known for is for killing Jews.
Also American. You conveniently omitted attempted conquest of Europe (with plans to continue to Africa, Asia, the Americas, and the rest of the world) under the initial excuse of lebensraum, as well as the systematic torture and murder of the elderly, sick, socialists, communists, homosexuals, trans, dissidents, Roma and other european ethnic minorities, asians, africans, and anyone else who was not part of the in group.
Also, it’s a fun fact that, in America, Nazis literally have more legal rights than communists. Nearly all federal labor laws exclude communists and those associated with a communist party from being protected. There have never been such restrictions placed on Nazis, despite their failed attempt to organize the overthrowing of the US government prior to US entry into WW2.
My fucking guy I don’t really know what you think the Israeli far-right trying to push 2 million people out of Gaza for lebensraum is if not at least Nazi-adjacent.
I severely doubt that Bibi said the word Lebensraum. But whatever. Give me the quote. When did he say he was invoking Lebensraum (or a similar concept) over the Gaza citizens?
Or are you just making shit up because you don’t know what these words mean? For fucks sake, the settler issue is in the West Bank, not Gaza, or did you get confused over the actual politics over the region?
Out of curiosity, how do you think people ended up concentrated in Gaza, one of the most population dense cities in the world? You think they all decided to move out of their ancestral homes to a city where they don’t control their own power, sky, water, food intake, trade, trash, or sea? The settler issue is everywhere in Israel and Palestine because the history of settler colonialism in the region is the only reason we have the issues we have now.
Because 1917 Balfour Declaration was a shitty set of lines drawn by the British during WW1. The Ottomans were a great power back then, and one of the only world powers that was predominantly Muslim.
The Jews didn’t really migrate to the area until 1947, where after the horrors of the Holocaust were made evident, the British gave the land to Israel formally (some migration occurred during the post WW1 period but the bulk was post-WW2.) EDIT: I recognize that historically, some Hebrews have always lived there as it is also their ancestral homes… but the “bulk” came from Europe and other countries.
Naturally, the historic Muslim communities were pissed at this development and there was a period of minor war until 1967, wherein the current borders have basically settled.
The violence never stopped. The most recent developments was the rise of Hamas, whose goals are to genocide Israel and wipe them from ‘The River to the Sea’. Bibi and the far-right Israelis took advantage of this politically as a scapegoat, but Hamas took Bibi and the Israeli far right as a scapegoat as well.
Hamas wins the last Gaza election, taking power in the early 00s. Israeli offers aid (water, food, fuel, electricity) but it turns out that Hamas has been taking the pipes for water and turning them into weapons. Hamas has also been stealing food and fuel to feed their war machine.
Ultimately, this population crisis is largely homegrown. The bulk of Gaza citizens are under 18, proof that it was the pro-birth policies under the Hamas regime that has made the bulk of this population issue.
“half the population being below 18 means that they breed like rabbits, and not st all that Israel is bombing a million child (in the literal sense of the word)”.
This person may be genuine to themselves but I fail to take them seriously.
I don’t know, man, it seems to me like those mostly opposed to calling Israel nazis use this “but this is so cringy” excuse to make others not do it, but there isn’t any reason not to. The irony is too stark. Like what does Bibi have to do with this? It’s not like it was any less of a genocide before his right wing government, and it’s not like that will ever stop no matter what government is in power. Those who focus on Bibi are usually those who want us to look away from the holocaust being repeated.
But the Nazi comparison is fucking laughable and horribly ignorant, and is a horrible overstep of the left.
Hmm, is it though? I recently visited the Topography of Terror museum and if anything, there are so much Nazi shit being repeated in Palestine.
Its cringe because Hamas is literally calling for Israeli genocide. They literally are chanting “From River to the Sea” and “Death to America”. Meanwhile, Israel has been sitting here with mostly untouched borders since 1967, proving that they aren’t genociding anyone in the past half-century.
I recognize that a lot of this is younger people not knowing the history of the region. But brutal killings and massacres are par-for-the-course here. And whenever they happen, Israel always responds disproportionally to “prove” that those populations shouldn’t mess with Israel. Its a calculated brutality of “Don’t mess with us, and we won’t mess with you”. At no point has Israel ever gone as far as genocide, and even today I stand by that.
Now, the policy of disproportional response is pretty bad from a Christian (and even Jewish) mindset. See “An eye for an eye”, as per Jewish law/custom from millenia ago. You should never invoke more pain/suffering than what was originally dealt to you. And we need to remind Israel of this and of their culture, and of their history. But calling them Nazis, or genocidal, or whatever, when they’re clearly not (and are instead just… very disproportional and brutal), is counterproductive. You need to actually have an argument that matches the reality of what’s happening here.
We are going into an election year. If enough people make this shitty argument, you’re going to fuck over your political chances. So I’d like to erase these shitty arguments before they do harm to your political cause. You can take my advice, or ignore it. Up to you. But its in everyone’s best interest to make proper and factual arguments.
Ah yes, an activist holding up “From the River to the Sea” is calling for genocide, but Israel who’s an illegitimate apartheid state actually committing genocide somehow doesn’t make you bat an eye here?
You say a lot of words but they mostly mean nothing :/
Ah yes, an activist holding up “From the River to the Sea” is calling for genocide
I mean, do you know what those words even fucking mean? That’s literally calling for the wiping out of the Jewish people and a return of the land to Muslim rule.
illegitimate
Does the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine not… exist or something? The legal paperwork is literally right here establishing Israel under the charter of the United Nations. Now this was a shitty plan, built on a shitty idea from 1917 called the Balfour Declaration. But there’s nothing “illegitimate” about this. All the paperwork and everything was signed and recognized by the United Nations. And likely recognized by literally every country from everyone this discussion is from. (USA, Germany, Britain, etc. etc. Whoever is in this thread is probably from a country that recognizes the United Nations plan from 1947).
actually committing genocide
You’re skipping the demonstration of Israel pushing for a genocide. I’ve been asking all thread and everyone keeps ignoring my calls to provide evidence.
Dude, you’re taking the slogans of Hamas, PLO, or PLA. Do you… even look at who the fuck these people are before you take their language? They’re horrifyingly evil.
decades of erasing Palestinians and their identity isn’t.
Explain.
For example, when I point out Ukrainian genocide, I point out the process of Russian filtration operations where children are stolen out of Ukraine, their libraries burned, their textbooks replaced by Russian textbooks, their language destroyed. When I point out Uyghur genocide in China, I can point to the forced sterilization. Literally making people unable to have babies through the use of chemical / medicine processes which naturally destroys the culture and the people entirely over time.
Meanwhile, we can look at Gaza and…
Oh wow, its like the people of Gaza continue to grow and develop as a people, even under the (brutal) rule of Israel. Yes, Israel is brutal, that doesn’t make them genocidal.
I know right? Its like you didn’t have an argument from the start or any proof of genocidal Israelis or factual backing behind your discussion point or meme.
More than half a million people in Gaza — a quarter of the population — are starving, according to a report Thursday by the United Nations and other agencies, highlighting the humanitarian crisis caused by Israel’s bombardment and siege on the territory in response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack.
The extent of the population’s hunger eclipsed even the near-famines in Afghanistan and Yemen of recent years, according to figures in the report. The report warned that the risk of famine is “increasing each day,” blaming the hunger on insufficient aid entering Gaza.
“It doesn’t get any worse,’’ said Arif Husain, chief economist for the U.N.’s World Food Program. “I have never seen something at the scale that is happening in Gaza. And at this speed.”
But hey, big line goes up, who cares if they’re chronically malnourished and desperate. What possible consequence could this even have for regional stability and security?
I do care about the people of Gaza. I’m actively, and truly, believe that the best course of action is for the Egyptian/Qatari peace plan to be immediately signed.
But if someone is trying to convince me that Israel has been genociding the people of Gaza for the last 5 decades well… I’m sorry. The math just doesn’t add up. We have statistics that prove otherwise.
Hamas’s actions are unforgiveable, but and a huge BUT. “Mostly untouched borders” - doesnt mean much when fences mean nothing to the israeli government nor settlers being recorded stoning people and forcing them out of mutli-generational homes on a weekly basis for decades. A lot of sympathy and good will for israel was lost with how they ignore the crimes of zionists and punnish and starve common people who made a decent living working agriculture. A lot of common ground is found with the oppressed fighting to reclaim or protect what is theirs. Israel has been destroying families and breeding terrorists to justify their position.
I certainly think the West Bank situation is actually genocidal or close-to-it. There’s a lot there that honestly makes me uncomfortable. “Technically illegal” but if the Israeli police are ignoring the breakage of the laws here, then its not really illegal, is it?
The issue is that this meme is talking about Gaza. The West Bank issue is a totally different area of the country, and the people of Gaza barely even connect with the people of the West Bank anymore. Remember that the West Bank follows the Palestinian National Authority and/or Palestine Liberation Organization, while Gaza follows Hamas. So trying to tie the West Bank issues to the plight of the Gaza civilians is a major stretch.
Think about your political statements/memes before spreading them. At least a little bit.
Senseless slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians by an army of clumsy, terrified, armed-to-the-teeth conscripts.
Perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with this. No notes.
“Shit, this looks shockingly similar to what happened to Poland circa 1939”
Abhorrent. Unconscionable. Deplorable. You should be ashamed of yourself.
the Nazi comparison is fucking laughable and horribly ignorant
Say what you will about the Israeli invasion and wholesale extermination of Gaza’s native population, but they definitely aren’t wearing the same uniforms.
Uh huh. So… show me the gas chambers and other mass-death centers.
I get that this Nazi comparison is just hyperbole. But I’m calling you out on it. Comparing Jewish people to Nazis is… counterproductive. There’s no mass death center, or trains of civilians getting offloaded into camps where they dig their own graves and get gassed. Meanwhile, Hamas is using literally genocidal language and trying to wipe Israel off the map here.
The genocidal group is the dumbass Hamas in this conflict and you know it. Just because they’re dumbasses who don’t have the physical power / military strength to perform their promises doesn’t change the fact that Hamas is far closer to the literal Nazis in this example.
The closest thing to a genocide is the West Bank situation. But its still relatively ambiguous. I’ll give you points if you bring up West Bank issues because that at least gets the idea of genocide correct.
But Gaza is just a war man. A really brutal one where they obviously don’t care about each other or civilians and such. Both my grandmothers were in the Philippines during WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Life sucked. But they won’t call the Japanese genocidal there.
We reserve the word “genocide” for the explicit… well… erasures of people… to put it mildly. As brutal as Israel has gotten here in Gaza, its not a top-down policy of erasure.
Settlement / land stealing? Sure, could be genocidal.
Forced sterilization like the Uyghurs? Yeah, Genocide.
Etc. etc.
I’m fine with any example that shows a real genocide here. But I know you don’t got any real example of genocidal programs occurring in Gaza.
If a perpetrator hides their intentions but otherwise still does the acts that count as genocide, is it no longer a genocide because the goal is not stated to be genocide? Does the same also apply for ethnic cleansing?
In US Law: the unwarranted death of someone can be:
Negligent Homicide (ie: “Intent” judged to be negligent level).
Manslaughter (ie: “Intent” judged to be reckless level).
Murder (ie: “Intent” judged to be… well… intentional).
The “intent” is the entire debate. You have to prove that a death was at negligence / reckelssness / intentional to level off between the various crimes. Genocide is the same thing, you have to prove intent as part of it.
We both can look at the death of people (or the death of thousands, tens of thousands, or millions) and agree upon the dead bodies. But with regards to common law and the meaning of our words: it isn’t “murder” unless it is intentional. And its not “genocide” unless the intent was to wipe out the population.
As such: a nuclear weapon (ie: Hiroshima or Nagasaki) is not considered genocide even if it kills far more people, far more quickly (and even innocent people) than anything Israel does today.
Obviously intent can be hidden. (Its still truly a murder if you intended for someone to die. Even if you pretend it was an accident). But a large component of the definition of genocide is indeed, the “intent” behind the actions. If you can’t prove intent, then at “best” you only have the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians.
Which… frankly should be enough of a point to your debate to ya know… make a point or whatever about Israel’s needless brutality on this matter. But if you overplay your word-choice and miscalculate / misuse the word genocide, you lose debate points.
The reason why I consider West Bank setter bullshit to be “possible genocide”, is because the entire damn point of land-stealing like that is to wipe out populations by squeezing them out of the land they live in. But bombs in population centers? (Even dumb bombs that Israel is using?) much harder to prove intent.
Its hard for me to draw a line. In the case of Hitler / Nazis, they were just openly proclaiming it and shouting it from the rooftops so its obviously an easy call.
The level at which the Chinese invoke upon the Uyghur and/or the Russians vs the Ukrainians is sufficient. Both deny the genocide, but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal. Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it. There’s not much killing style genocide (aside from the Ukrainian war / atrocities in Bucha), but this is clearly an intentional program.
So something like that. When I see Israelis specifically doing genocidal actions that have been organized on a mass scale, then it’d reach the level of “Genocide” that I’ve called the Chinese / Russians out on.
show me the gas chambers and other mass-death centers
Its funny, because I’ve seen old school white nationalist Holocaust deniers say this exact same thing. Any effort to demonstrate the contrary results in blanket denialism - deny the sources, reject the images, insist on conspiracy-theory alternatives.
I have to wonder, if I present you with clear and damning evidence of the IDF conducting mass killings of civilian populations and mass imprisonment with the intention of killing the Arab population, will you accept it at face value or will you find an excuse to dismiss it?
The genocidal group is the dumbass Hamas
Hamas has no bomber jets. Hamas has no tanks. Hamas has no nuclear weapons. Hamas has no conscript army with years of training and ready access to equipment. Hamas has no prisons or schools or offices within Gaza. Hamas controls none of Gaza’s borders, nor do any of the countries bordering Gaza ally with Hamas. None of Hamas high level leadership can reside within the Gaza district without coming under artillery fire from Israel drones and mortars and bombers. And no one within the district of Gaza can present themselves as members of Hamas without being shot at or bombed by IDF security forces. A member of Hamas cannot lay a hand on the fence between the border of Israel and Gaza without risking extrajudicial killing, as evidenced by the 2018 Great March of Return, which resulted in 223 dead and over 9,000 Palestinians seriously wounded.
Consider the Israeli Samson Option, which proposes the wholesale nuclear annihilation of any country which successfully invades Israeli’s border.
Consider the Israeli Dahiya Doctrine, which outlines a strategy of systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure against any country which threatens Israeli border patrols. This strategy was most apparent during the '06 Lebanon War, which resulted in Israel leveling an entire quarter of Beirut.
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?
Ah right. They want all of it. No room left for Jews or Israel. What of the Israelis?
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
Oh right. They want to obliterate it. And guess what? this is just in the 2nd paragraph of Hamas’s founding documents.
Is singing “America the Beautiful” also a hate crime?
I have Hamas’s charter right here
You don’t. What you have is a link to a Yale Law library referencing a 1988 statement written up by Aḥmad Yāsīn. Yāsīn was arrested, tried, and sentenced by the Israeli government a year later, initially for life. However, he was released as part of a deal with Jordan, following a failed assassination attempt by Israel aimed at the far-more-moderate Khaled Mashal to reciprocally release the Mossad assassins involved in the murder attempt.
Incidentally, you have to look up the 1988 statement on a Yale Law website, rather than a library or data center located in Gaza, because Hamas is unable to host its own historical records thanks to
They want all of it. No room left for Jews or Israel.
The currently policy of Israel in the West Bank is to expand settlements into Palestinian territory and force Arabs further and further away from the major centers of commerce. The policy of Israel in Gaza has been to kettle the population and starve it into submission. Whatever an elderly Arab movement leader said in 1988, the existence of Hamas as an organization appears to only continue as a measure permitted by the Israeli government to divide Palestinians both politically and geographically. It is to prevent the collective political action of a unified Palestinian Authority in hopes of removing all Arabs from the Palestinian state.
Is singing “America the Beautiful” also a hate crime?
Okay, so after spending literally hours with me about how X is intent vs non-intent of genocide… I give you a demonstration of literally a call to literally and fucking erase Israel off the face of the Earth and suddenly its not a genocidal example of intent?
Good job. You’ve got a few posts to recalibrate or otherwise explain to me how this isn’t genocide and I really don’t care anymore about anything else you’re saying. You have to solve this issue right here, right now. Explain how this isn’t a genocidal goal. Where is Israel’s existence in Hamas’s plan?
Warsaw ghetto:
At its height, as many as 460,000 Jews were imprisoned there,[5] in an area of 3.4 km2 (1.3 sq mi).
353,846/sq mile
Gaza:
The Gaza Strip has almost exactly the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population. Its largest city, Gaza City, is more tightly packed than New York City, with more than 650,000 people living within its 18 square miles. 36,100/sq mile (it should be noted that the previously inhabited/habitable area has been greatly reduced through bombing)
So no, not exactly the same. However, Palestinians are a captive population without rights, redress, or freedom of movement…a lot like inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto were.
considering, I can look at the propaganda and ideology of the Nazis, and its striking resemblance to the current Israeli government’s ideology, I think yes.
I mean we have it all, the Lebensraum, the Übermensch (human animal), etc…
They literally call Holocaust Survivor families “Saponim”, which is a double entendre meaning both “cowards” because they didn’t fight being genocided harder, and also “Soap People.”
Not only is the comparison apt, it is quite possibly the single most accurate descriptor of what the Israeli state is.
Especially when you consider how they openly collaborate politically with the US evangelical right, a set who are only so pro Israel because they see it as a country sized concentration camp they can throw all the Jews in America into until sky daddy comes back.
Especially when you talk to the settlers and they declare that the “Israeli homeland”'s natural borders extend from the Nile in the West to the Euphrates in the east.
You wanna tell me how the state literally throwing its own democracy out in the name of supporting a class of settlers who literally have declared their intentions to Lebensraum the Middle East like the fucking Assads aren’t literally just Nazis we let get away with it because Jews apparently all look the same to the west?
Bibi is a Judeo-Nationalist right-wing extremist. Yes, in this case Jews aren’t the scapegoat; but boy, did they sure did adopt many of the Nazi tactics.
Do you seriously suggest that calling the literal Jewish state a bunch of Nazis actually holds any staying power politically? Or do you think its like one of those crappy slogans like “Occupy Wall Street” or “Defund the Police” that only makes Republicans stronger?
Think about your political statements/memes before spreading them. At least a little bit.
Take your win with regards to BiBi being a far-right asshole leading an Ethnostate. That’s PLENTY to discuss there about how trying to take down their Supreme Court is probably a bad move, or how Bibi’s politics with Hamas were bad for Israel/Gaza citizens but good for Bibi politically (and the asshole did what was best politically for him personally, rather than thinking about the greater picture), and I’d argue is at least a proximate cause of this war.
But the Nazi comparison is fucking laughable and horribly ignorant, and is a horrible overstep of the left.
Hey, German here. You are full of crap. The Nazi comparison is awfully accurate. Please go away.
Hey American here. From our perspective, the #1 thing the Nazis are known for is for killing Jews.
So if you want to have an argument that actually holds in American politics, at least think about what the mainstream opinion is and how it plays into things.
If you invoke Hitler in this argument, it will only increase the people’s resolve to fund Israel more as it will remind people of the Holocaust. This line of argument does not go the way you think it does over here. Its a hopeless misplay.
I’m an American, and if that’s all you understand about the Nazi regime, then that’s your failing. Everything should not have to be dumbed down to a level you can understand. Go read a book, visit one of the camps, listen to the survivors.
The Nazis are an apt comparison for the actions of Israel as they undertake the extermination of Palestinians.
The nazis didn’t just kill jews. What the nazis are most known for is being racist and trying to exterminate entire groups of people…
Ummmmm.
You know the USA had a segregated army and literal internment camps holding Japanese “traitors” around our country, right? We literally can’t hate on the Nazis for being racist because we did that shit.
USA didn’t get rid of segregation for at least 3 decades after the WW2 era. My Dad grew up in the segregated south: Virginia in the 1970s. I think you’re underestimating how much racist culture is still around here.
What is taught in American schools is that the Nazis tried to kill all the Jews. Its not wrong, but its a big emphasis on Judeo-Christian culture and the mainstream of American thought. You’re not going to get the typical American to think that Israel is Nazi, you’re just not.
You’d be surprised to learn that the concept of lebensraum was derived from “manifest destiny” and learned a lot of their pre-Holocaust oppression from the US.
Yes, we literally can. Racism is always bad. It’s bad in the US, it was bad in Nazi Germany, it was bad in South Africa, and it’s bad in Israel. People are capable of extrapolating beyond the group being oppressed to recognize when a comparable group is receiving a comparable type of oppression. In this case, Israel is committed to a genocide comparable to the Holocaust.
I think I can agree that removal of racism and all that would be nice, and we’re entering a political reality where this is possible. But you’re asking for something more: for Americans to understand your weird-ass argument about calling the Israeli government a Nazi regime.
Which will not work. That’s the core crux of this issue. Its an entirely insane argument by American standards. As I said earlier: the left has made a ton of rallying cries over the past decade. Some worked, some (like “Defund the Police”) utterly failed and instead made Republicans stronger. If this “The Jewish state of Israel is Nazi” argument actually reaches meme status, you’ll destroy the credibility of the left.
Okay, go tell the American people that. They’ll get confused. I promise you. The politics will not work the way you expect.
Nazis == Holocaust. That’s the #1 focus in our schools. You’re going to be working against like, our culture, if you try to go deeper than that. As I said earlier, this line of discussion will not go the way you expect.
The internet is not American
Any government is capable of fascism and capable of genocide. If that’s too complicated for you, go sit at the kids ta-… Don’t talk to my kids go sit outside.
There’s an explicitly fascist and genocidal player in this conflict. And spoiler alert, it isn’t the Israelis.
I think you might want to check on the people who had an election on 25 January 2006, seized power after that and refused any further elections. Explicitly run a Muslim ethno-state and terrorist tactics, and wish to kill the Jews from “River to the Sea”.
It isn’t Israelis. It’s Israel, though, as a country. An apartheid country.
Hey ding dong, not every Palestinian is a member of Hamas and the average age of Palestinians is 19. The average Palestinian did not vote in 2006.
Yet Israel cut the power, food, and aid for the entire nation because of terrorists that live among them. Then they proceeded to murder over 20,000 civilians (almost certainly an undercount). And in their bloodlust, they managed to execute 3 people waving a white flag with their shirts off… Hostages.
You want to talk about how terrible Hamas is when the IDF is indiscriminately killing everyone they find? Dropping bombs in the most population dense regions of the world?
The world isn’t black and white, there can be two terrible actors. And right now, the IDF has already killed 20x the number of people killed by Hamas on Oct 7. With no signs of wanting to stop.
And for someone that wants to “school” people on history, perhaps take the 5 seconds to Google what “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” means. Hint, it’s not “kill all the Jews in Israel”.
Hmmm. I wonder how we can solve those problems.
Maybe Hamas should get uniforms and follow the international rules of War so that Israel knows who to bomb and who is a civilian. Hmmmmm?
Without uniforms, without a regular army, Hamas is causing this problem to occur to their own people.
Geniva conventions don’t just apply to Israel. They also apply to Hamas, and Hamas is breaking a metric ton of rules here. The natural result is that Israel doesn’t want to play by the rules either.
American here. Would you care to explain to me how Israel can be compared to Nazis? My stupid brain can only understand Good guy vs bad guy movie tropes. Please give me a break.
I went to public school and can clearly see the comparison between a far-right Zionist Israel and Nazism without getting tripped up on the Jews being the largest target during the Holocaust. Not only that, but with the shrinking of Palestinian owned land and illegal Israeli Settlers I can also make the comparison to Manifest Destiny and the relocation of Native American people, even though Palestinians aren’t Cherokee.
Attempting to expand Israeli lands for Israeli jews and pushing out Palestinians with no source of aid for those displaced, as well as blocking aid and giving extremely short timelines to escape the encroaching Frontlines very much falls in line with Nazi ideology.
The Nation of Islam and the American Nazi Party had common goals despite being mutually exclusive. I don’t think it’s that far of a stretch to compare Israel with the Nazis.
In particular, Israeli borders have been set since 1967 and they even returned the Sinai peninsula after the 7 day war.
So please, show me where Israeli conquest in the past 50 years (1973 to 2023) led to expanded Israeli territory.
Ah right, there wasn’t any expansion of territory at all. It’s like they aren’t invoking Lebensraum at all.
Yes. This is a problem. But they are as you put it, illegal. The issue here is not one of law or even the Israeli government, but instead the people at the bottom trying to reclaim their lands. Or so they think anyway, everyone has a claim here so it gets rather complex.
Israel needs to punish those illegal settlers in the West Bank more. But guess what? The West Bank settler issue is in the West Bank, not Gaza.
So if you are talking about Gaza specifically, you’ve already lost the settler debate because there are no Israeli Settlers moving into Gaza.
“invoking Lebensraum” sounds so awfully off. You apporach this discussion in a condescending fashion, yet you sound rather… superficially informed. “Lebensraum” is not a program that gets “invoked”. It’s the German word for “habitat” or “living space” and was not as prevalent in Nazi ideology as especially US-discussions make it seem. Furthermore, “Lebensraum” alone is not a Nazi-thing. It’s “Lebensraum im Osten”. “Lebensraum” is a word that’s common in German today. “Der Lebensraum des Pandabären ist in Gefahr” “The habitat of the pandabear is in danger”. So whenever someone starts yelling “Lebensraum” and starts to act smug in Nazi-debates, they actually disqualified themselves to German ears.
Okay cool. So tell me when the Israelis have called for it.
You’re begging the question and avoiding the crux of the issue, because you know you this entire line of discussion is bullshit. And I don’t blame you. I’m just calling yall out on it.
Even if it’s not effective the comparison still holds true. I honestly don’t know the best way to approach people who deny genocide. But I think not calling something for what it is is a mistake.
Okay. Give me the Bibi’s quote where he’s willing to genocide the Gaza people.
Bibi is enough of an asshole that we can defeat him just on what he has already done. There’s no point making up crimes to bring this man down. Just use the facts, the real life facts and actions hes done, and don’t exaggerate.
In 1989, Netanyahu lamented that Israel missed the opportunity presented by global attention on China’s repression of pro-democracy protests in Tiananmen square “to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the (occupied) territories”.
Deporting Jews was one of the steps in the holocaust.
Bibi is trying to pretend it is voluntary while also trying to make Palestine unlivable to that they ‘voluntarily’ leave to avoid it being so obviously the same thing, so we might not have a recent quote of him literally saying it but we have his intended outcome and the actions he has taken.
Gosh, you know, I didn’t want to debate you but for the love of fuck, just admit you are wrong for one second.
What? Tell the American people history? Really? Ugh. Somehow you seem to believe that what you were taught as a kid is necessarily true because you got taught that, no other reason whatsoever.
You keep saying WE, and OUR, but I doubt that most Americans would associate with you.
I thought you wanted to leave the debate yesterday?
Whatever. I’m wrong. Happy? Feels shallow doesn’t it? That’s probably not what you wanted.
If you actually want to pick up where the discussion left off, my latest post and point-counterpoint is over there. Not here. We already covered this post.
Edit: I’m fine picking back where we left off. But if you want to rehash and replay our debate yesterday, just reread what we already wrote. I’m not wasting my time replaying the same conversation.
Yeah, I’d be happy if you meant it. /:
Fucking top kek. If that’s all your learned about Nazis then I don’t think you paid attention in school and just read the cliff notes.
You should think concentration camps that work people to death in order to fund a warachine that teaches the “chosen few” that they are superior in every way because it’s nice to have a scapegoat and free labor.
That starts to sound really familiar to a country that has relied on pretty much the same sentiment to keep its place. And pictures of mass graves is gonna do more to remind people of the Holocaust and the people of Gaza aren’t standing outside the pit.
Also it should really teach you to be cautious of people who offer simple plans and assume victory is granted for simply wanting it.
I ain’t American but you should probably try not to speak for everyone like that. I have two American friends and I doubt they’d be this ignorant about history.
Guess you didn’t hear about the time Israel was administering long term birth control to Ethiopian immigrant Jews without their consent? That’s classified as a form of genocide.
Also American. You conveniently omitted attempted conquest of Europe (with plans to continue to Africa, Asia, the Americas, and the rest of the world) under the initial excuse of lebensraum, as well as the systematic torture and murder of the elderly, sick, socialists, communists, homosexuals, trans, dissidents, Roma and other european ethnic minorities, asians, africans, and anyone else who was not part of the in group.
Also, it’s a fun fact that, in America, Nazis literally have more legal rights than communists. Nearly all federal labor laws exclude communists and those associated with a communist party from being protected. There have never been such restrictions placed on Nazis, despite their failed attempt to organize the overthrowing of the US government prior to US entry into WW2.
My fucking guy I don’t really know what you think the Israeli far-right trying to push 2 million people out of Gaza for lebensraum is if not at least Nazi-adjacent.
I severely doubt that Bibi said the word Lebensraum. But whatever. Give me the quote. When did he say he was invoking Lebensraum (or a similar concept) over the Gaza citizens?
Or are you just making shit up because you don’t know what these words mean? For fucks sake, the settler issue is in the West Bank, not Gaza, or did you get confused over the actual politics over the region?
Out of curiosity, how do you think people ended up concentrated in Gaza, one of the most population dense cities in the world? You think they all decided to move out of their ancestral homes to a city where they don’t control their own power, sky, water, food intake, trade, trash, or sea? The settler issue is everywhere in Israel and Palestine because the history of settler colonialism in the region is the only reason we have the issues we have now.
Because 1917 Balfour Declaration was a shitty set of lines drawn by the British during WW1. The Ottomans were a great power back then, and one of the only world powers that was predominantly Muslim.
The Jews didn’t really migrate to the area until 1947, where after the horrors of the Holocaust were made evident, the British gave the land to Israel formally (some migration occurred during the post WW1 period but the bulk was post-WW2.) EDIT: I recognize that historically, some Hebrews have always lived there as it is also their ancestral homes… but the “bulk” came from Europe and other countries.
Naturally, the historic Muslim communities were pissed at this development and there was a period of minor war until 1967, wherein the current borders have basically settled.
The violence never stopped. The most recent developments was the rise of Hamas, whose goals are to genocide Israel and wipe them from ‘The River to the Sea’. Bibi and the far-right Israelis took advantage of this politically as a scapegoat, but Hamas took Bibi and the Israeli far right as a scapegoat as well.
Hamas wins the last Gaza election, taking power in the early 00s. Israeli offers aid (water, food, fuel, electricity) but it turns out that Hamas has been taking the pipes for water and turning them into weapons. Hamas has also been stealing food and fuel to feed their war machine.
Ultimately, this population crisis is largely homegrown. The bulk of Gaza citizens are under 18, proof that it was the pro-birth policies under the Hamas regime that has made the bulk of this population issue.
Need I continue or is this already known by you?
Do you like the sounds of babies being killed on Christmas?
This person is like:
“half the population being below 18 means that they breed like rabbits, and not st all that Israel is bombing a million child (in the literal sense of the word)”.
This person may be genuine to themselves but I fail to take them seriously.
OP wouldn’t be the first Zionist to refer to Arabs as an invasive pest and imply they need to be exterminated.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers
That’s the kind of bastard Bibi was attempting to kill judicial independence to empower.
I don’t know, man, it seems to me like those mostly opposed to calling Israel nazis use this “but this is so cringy” excuse to make others not do it, but there isn’t any reason not to. The irony is too stark. Like what does Bibi have to do with this? It’s not like it was any less of a genocide before his right wing government, and it’s not like that will ever stop no matter what government is in power. Those who focus on Bibi are usually those who want us to look away from the holocaust being repeated.
Hmm, is it though? I recently visited the Topography of Terror museum and if anything, there are so much Nazi shit being repeated in Palestine.
Its cringe because Hamas is literally calling for Israeli genocide. They literally are chanting “From River to the Sea” and “Death to America”. Meanwhile, Israel has been sitting here with mostly untouched borders since 1967, proving that they aren’t genociding anyone in the past half-century.
I recognize that a lot of this is younger people not knowing the history of the region. But brutal killings and massacres are par-for-the-course here. And whenever they happen, Israel always responds disproportionally to “prove” that those populations shouldn’t mess with Israel. Its a calculated brutality of “Don’t mess with us, and we won’t mess with you”. At no point has Israel ever gone as far as genocide, and even today I stand by that.
Now, the policy of disproportional response is pretty bad from a Christian (and even Jewish) mindset. See “An eye for an eye”, as per Jewish law/custom from millenia ago. You should never invoke more pain/suffering than what was originally dealt to you. And we need to remind Israel of this and of their culture, and of their history. But calling them Nazis, or genocidal, or whatever, when they’re clearly not (and are instead just… very disproportional and brutal), is counterproductive. You need to actually have an argument that matches the reality of what’s happening here.
We are going into an election year. If enough people make this shitty argument, you’re going to fuck over your political chances. So I’d like to erase these shitty arguments before they do harm to your political cause. You can take my advice, or ignore it. Up to you. But its in everyone’s best interest to make proper and factual arguments.
Ah yes, an activist holding up “From the River to the Sea” is calling for genocide, but Israel who’s an illegitimate apartheid state actually committing genocide somehow doesn’t make you bat an eye here?
You say a lot of words but they mostly mean nothing :/
PS: you stand alone.
I mean, do you know what those words even fucking mean? That’s literally calling for the wiping out of the Jewish people and a return of the land to Muslim rule.
Does the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine not… exist or something? The legal paperwork is literally right here establishing Israel under the charter of the United Nations. Now this was a shitty plan, built on a shitty idea from 1917 called the Balfour Declaration. But there’s nothing “illegitimate” about this. All the paperwork and everything was signed and recognized by the United Nations. And likely recognized by literally every country from everyone this discussion is from. (USA, Germany, Britain, etc. etc. Whoever is in this thread is probably from a country that recognizes the United Nations plan from 1947).
You’re skipping the demonstration of Israel pushing for a genocide. I’ve been asking all thread and everyone keeps ignoring my calls to provide evidence.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/14/middleeast/us-aircraft-carrier-eisenhower-israel-gaza-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
2x Carrier Strike Groups say otherwise. But yeah, pretend that my side doesn’t have power if you want.
Hmmm I though Israel didn’t belive in the UN lol
What about these resolutions Israel ignored?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
If you think Palestinans wanting their old land back is somehow the same as wanting to kill all Jews, then I can’t help you.
From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free
Go report me to the mods if this is a “call for genocide” but somehow decades of erasing Palestinians and their identity isn’t.
Dude, you’re taking the slogans of Hamas, PLO, or PLA. Do you… even look at who the fuck these people are before you take their language? They’re horrifyingly evil.
Explain.
For example, when I point out Ukrainian genocide, I point out the process of Russian filtration operations where children are stolen out of Ukraine, their libraries burned, their textbooks replaced by Russian textbooks, their language destroyed. When I point out Uyghur genocide in China, I can point to the forced sterilization. Literally making people unable to have babies through the use of chemical / medicine processes which naturally destroys the culture and the people entirely over time.
Meanwhile, we can look at Gaza and…
Oh wow, its like the people of Gaza continue to grow and develop as a people, even under the (brutal) rule of Israel. Yes, Israel is brutal, that doesn’t make them genocidal.
What a waste of time to even have written a single letter back to you.
I know right? Its like you didn’t have an argument from the start or any proof of genocidal Israelis or factual backing behind your discussion point or meme.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-21-2023-7d9718b32bf0d308c44c7c9e3c4e0deb
But hey, big line goes up, who cares if they’re chronically malnourished and desperate. What possible consequence could this even have for regional stability and security?
I do care about the people of Gaza. I’m actively, and truly, believe that the best course of action is for the Egyptian/Qatari peace plan to be immediately signed.
But if someone is trying to convince me that Israel has been genociding the people of Gaza for the last 5 decades well… I’m sorry. The math just doesn’t add up. We have statistics that prove otherwise.
Hamas’s actions are unforgiveable, but and a huge BUT. “Mostly untouched borders” - doesnt mean much when fences mean nothing to the israeli government nor settlers being recorded stoning people and forcing them out of mutli-generational homes on a weekly basis for decades. A lot of sympathy and good will for israel was lost with how they ignore the crimes of zionists and punnish and starve common people who made a decent living working agriculture. A lot of common ground is found with the oppressed fighting to reclaim or protect what is theirs. Israel has been destroying families and breeding terrorists to justify their position.
I certainly think the West Bank situation is actually genocidal or close-to-it. There’s a lot there that honestly makes me uncomfortable. “Technically illegal” but if the Israeli police are ignoring the breakage of the laws here, then its not really illegal, is it?
The issue is that this meme is talking about Gaza. The West Bank issue is a totally different area of the country, and the people of Gaza barely even connect with the people of the West Bank anymore. Remember that the West Bank follows the Palestinian National Authority and/or Palestine Liberation Organization, while Gaza follows Hamas. So trying to tie the West Bank issues to the plight of the Gaza civilians is a major stretch.
took me a while to respond, but i do appreciate more context. this is good information to consider, ty.
Perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with this. No notes.
Abhorrent. Unconscionable. Deplorable. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Say what you will about the Israeli invasion and wholesale extermination of Gaza’s native population, but they definitely aren’t wearing the same uniforms.
Uh huh. So… show me the gas chambers and other mass-death centers.
I get that this Nazi comparison is just hyperbole. But I’m calling you out on it. Comparing Jewish people to Nazis is… counterproductive. There’s no mass death center, or trains of civilians getting offloaded into camps where they dig their own graves and get gassed. Meanwhile, Hamas is using literally genocidal language and trying to wipe Israel off the map here.
The genocidal group is the dumbass Hamas in this conflict and you know it. Just because they’re dumbasses who don’t have the physical power / military strength to perform their promises doesn’t change the fact that Hamas is far closer to the literal Nazis in this example.
Not all genocides are alike. Not all use the same methods.
The closest thing to a genocide is the West Bank situation. But its still relatively ambiguous. I’ll give you points if you bring up West Bank issues because that at least gets the idea of genocide correct.
But Gaza is just a war man. A really brutal one where they obviously don’t care about each other or civilians and such. Both my grandmothers were in the Philippines during WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Life sucked. But they won’t call the Japanese genocidal there.
We reserve the word “genocide” for the explicit… well… erasures of people… to put it mildly. As brutal as Israel has gotten here in Gaza, its not a top-down policy of erasure.
Settlement / land stealing? Sure, could be genocidal.
Forced sterilization like the Uyghurs? Yeah, Genocide.
Etc. etc.
I’m fine with any example that shows a real genocide here. But I know you don’t got any real example of genocidal programs occurring in Gaza.
If a perpetrator hides their intentions but otherwise still does the acts that count as genocide, is it no longer a genocide because the goal is not stated to be genocide? Does the same also apply for ethnic cleansing?
In US Law: the unwarranted death of someone can be:
The “intent” is the entire debate. You have to prove that a death was at negligence / reckelssness / intentional to level off between the various crimes. Genocide is the same thing, you have to prove intent as part of it.
We both can look at the death of people (or the death of thousands, tens of thousands, or millions) and agree upon the dead bodies. But with regards to common law and the meaning of our words: it isn’t “murder” unless it is intentional. And its not “genocide” unless the intent was to wipe out the population.
As such: a nuclear weapon (ie: Hiroshima or Nagasaki) is not considered genocide even if it kills far more people, far more quickly (and even innocent people) than anything Israel does today.
Obviously intent can be hidden. (Its still truly a murder if you intended for someone to die. Even if you pretend it was an accident). But a large component of the definition of genocide is indeed, the “intent” behind the actions. If you can’t prove intent, then at “best” you only have the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians.
Which… frankly should be enough of a point to your debate to ya know… make a point or whatever about Israel’s needless brutality on this matter. But if you overplay your word-choice and miscalculate / misuse the word genocide, you lose debate points.
The reason why I consider West Bank setter bullshit to be “possible genocide”, is because the entire damn point of land-stealing like that is to wipe out populations by squeezing them out of the land they live in. But bombs in population centers? (Even dumb bombs that Israel is using?) much harder to prove intent.
So what would it take to convince you that it is intentional?
Its hard for me to draw a line. In the case of Hitler / Nazis, they were just openly proclaiming it and shouting it from the rooftops so its obviously an easy call.
The level at which the Chinese invoke upon the Uyghur and/or the Russians vs the Ukrainians is sufficient. Both deny the genocide, but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal. Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it. There’s not much killing style genocide (aside from the Ukrainian war / atrocities in Bucha), but this is clearly an intentional program.
So something like that. When I see Israelis specifically doing genocidal actions that have been organized on a mass scale, then it’d reach the level of “Genocide” that I’ve called the Chinese / Russians out on.
Its funny, because I’ve seen old school white nationalist Holocaust deniers say this exact same thing. Any effort to demonstrate the contrary results in blanket denialism - deny the sources, reject the images, insist on conspiracy-theory alternatives.
I have to wonder, if I present you with clear and damning evidence of the IDF conducting mass killings of civilian populations and mass imprisonment with the intention of killing the Arab population, will you accept it at face value or will you find an excuse to dismiss it?
Hamas has no bomber jets. Hamas has no tanks. Hamas has no nuclear weapons. Hamas has no conscript army with years of training and ready access to equipment. Hamas has no prisons or schools or offices within Gaza. Hamas controls none of Gaza’s borders, nor do any of the countries bordering Gaza ally with Hamas. None of Hamas high level leadership can reside within the Gaza district without coming under artillery fire from Israel drones and mortars and bombers. And no one within the district of Gaza can present themselves as members of Hamas without being shot at or bombed by IDF security forces. A member of Hamas cannot lay a hand on the fence between the border of Israel and Gaza without risking extrajudicial killing, as evidenced by the 2018 Great March of Return, which resulted in 223 dead and over 9,000 Palestinians seriously wounded.
Consider the Israeli Samson Option, which proposes the wholesale nuclear annihilation of any country which successfully invades Israeli’s border.
Consider the Israeli Hannibal Directive, which advocates for the killing of Israel’s own population as an alternative to prisoner exchanges with Palestinians. A directive which appears to be consistent with the assassination of three prisoners taken during the October 7th raid, who were killed by Israeli snipers while attempting to flag down support in northern Gaza
Consider the Israeli Dahiya Doctrine, which outlines a strategy of systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure against any country which threatens Israeli border patrols. This strategy was most apparent during the '06 Lebanon War, which resulted in Israel leveling an entire quarter of Beirut.
Consider an entire subpage of Wikipedia dedicated to Massacres committed by Israel
Then tell me again about how Hamas is the real genocidal group.
Are you fucking kidding me? From the River to the Sea. So tell me, according to Hamas, how much land should the Jewish people get under their plan?
Oh, don’t worry. I don’t need you to answer that. I have Hamas’s charter right here. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp Lets see… which line should I pick out?
Ah right. They want all of it. No room left for Jews or Israel. What of the Israelis?
Oh right. They want to obliterate it. And guess what? this is just in the 2nd paragraph of Hamas’s founding documents.
Is singing “America the Beautiful” also a hate crime?
You don’t. What you have is a link to a Yale Law library referencing a 1988 statement written up by Aḥmad Yāsīn. Yāsīn was arrested, tried, and sentenced by the Israeli government a year later, initially for life. However, he was released as part of a deal with Jordan, following a failed assassination attempt by Israel aimed at the far-more-moderate Khaled Mashal to reciprocally release the Mossad assassins involved in the murder attempt.
Incidentally, you have to look up the 1988 statement on a Yale Law website, rather than a library or data center located in Gaza, because Hamas is unable to host its own historical records thanks to
Furthermore, it should be noted that the current Prime Minister of Israel has been content with using Hamas as leverage against the Palestinian authority for decades. To quote Philidelphia’s favorite son, Benjamin Netanyahu, “Those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.”
The currently policy of Israel in the West Bank is to expand settlements into Palestinian territory and force Arabs further and further away from the major centers of commerce. The policy of Israel in Gaza has been to kettle the population and starve it into submission. Whatever an elderly Arab movement leader said in 1988, the existence of Hamas as an organization appears to only continue as a measure permitted by the Israeli government to divide Palestinians both politically and geographically. It is to prevent the collective political action of a unified Palestinian Authority in hopes of removing all Arabs from the Palestinian state.
Okay, so after spending literally hours with me about how X is intent vs non-intent of genocide… I give you a demonstration of literally a call to literally and fucking erase Israel off the face of the Earth and suddenly its not a genocidal example of intent?
Good job. You’ve got a few posts to recalibrate or otherwise explain to me how this isn’t genocide and I really don’t care anymore about anything else you’re saying. You have to solve this issue right here, right now. Explain how this isn’t a genocidal goal. Where is Israel’s existence in Hamas’s plan?
My guy what are you talking about?
https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1739897895908692242
Warsaw ghetto: At its height, as many as 460,000 Jews were imprisoned there,[5] in an area of 3.4 km2 (1.3 sq mi). 353,846/sq mile
Gaza: The Gaza Strip has almost exactly the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population. Its largest city, Gaza City, is more tightly packed than New York City, with more than 650,000 people living within its 18 square miles. 36,100/sq mile (it should be noted that the previously inhabited/habitable area has been greatly reduced through bombing)
So no, not exactly the same. However, Palestinians are a captive population without rights, redress, or freedom of movement…a lot like inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto were.
considering, I can look at the propaganda and ideology of the Nazis, and its striking resemblance to the current Israeli government’s ideology, I think yes.
I mean we have it all, the Lebensraum, the Übermensch (human animal), etc…
They literally call Holocaust Survivor families “Saponim”, which is a double entendre meaning both “cowards” because they didn’t fight being genocided harder, and also “Soap People.”
Not only is the comparison apt, it is quite possibly the single most accurate descriptor of what the Israeli state is.
Especially when you consider how they openly collaborate politically with the US evangelical right, a set who are only so pro Israel because they see it as a country sized concentration camp they can throw all the Jews in America into until sky daddy comes back.
Especially when you talk to the settlers and they declare that the “Israeli homeland”'s natural borders extend from the Nile in the West to the Euphrates in the east.
You wanna tell me how the state literally throwing its own democracy out in the name of supporting a class of settlers who literally have declared their intentions to Lebensraum the Middle East like the fucking Assads aren’t literally just Nazis we let get away with it because Jews apparently all look the same to the west?
Bibi is a Judeo-Nationalist right-wing extremist. Yes, in this case Jews aren’t the scapegoat; but boy, did they sure did adopt many of the Nazi tactics.
I can certainly agree with what you said and will even support your viewpoint.
There’s a fine line of language here that needs to be moderated if people want to be correct, stable, and strong with their arguments.